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Notice how a lot of folks aren’t aware of the disgusting things Gaiman did, specifically BECAUSE he went quiet. Rowling doesn’t want to go quiet because she’s a crusader: discriminating against trans people is a goal for her.
Yeah, Gaiman keeps a low profile because he wants people to forget what he did. Rowling is proud of being a hateful cunt and invests time and money in proliferating hate.
Yeah its a deliberate strategy by Gaiman, while in the background he goes after his victims that settled previously for breaching NDAs. Even if he doesn’t win its money well spent to stop more accusations from coming out. He’s going to wait this out and try to rehabilitate himself in a few years.
I thought NDAs couldn’t be used to cover criminal behaviour?
yes, she sees herself as a kind of martyr and victim of a witch-hunt, which does change how she responds to the cultural backlash she receives for her behavior.
Also I actually have less of an issue with other people buying Gaiman’s work. I have no love for the man and won’t buy anything myself again, but if you buy something of his, the money goes to him, and stops there. Rowling directly funds bigotry; the money people spend on Harry Potter is in a direct pipeline to funding the suffering of innocent people.
At the very least, before everything happened with Gaiman, he was known for having positive philanthropic ventures. Even if you gave him money, a sizable portion went to him, another portion went on to better the world. I’d presume he still supports these trusts and charities too.
I mean, I still love American Gods, Good omens and Neverwhere. I just stopped recommending them to people.
I still enjoy his writing, but I’m not sure how to engage now. I want to separate the artist from the art and let the legal system do its thing as a separate thing and I don’t know what ‘right’ looks like as a reader
tbh my feelings seem to be guiding things before anything like rational morality does - I feel cognitive dissonance about his art because of the association with him as a rapist, and that’s enough for me to ditch his art without having to justify it as a moral necessity that others must do as well.
Buying used copies and pirating his stuff so he never sees a penny, and talking about what a pile of shit he is. I do the same with David and Leigh Eddings. Who locked children in cages in their basement and beat them, among other things.
Holy shit, what the fuck? I think I read one edding’s book and didn’t think much of it, but what the fuck?! Where’s my interrobang button!?
Well ultimately you didn’t do anything wrong, he did. So proceed how you wish. If you read some of his work nothing changes and that’s the same if you choose not to.
I can’t separate artist and art. I feel guilty and angry. But I also don’t want to. Money to them is money to their deeds. Paying for anything Harry Potter is paying for anti-trans movements. Paying anything Gaiman goes to the “fix your image” firm he has hired. Then I start thinking that firm is probably out there with messaging convincing people to separate art from the artist.
Heres what you can do:
Encourage people to pirate his shit
Remind people what he did. In detail.
Start with me! I know he did… Some rapey shit? Pro ably wizard flavored?
Here’s the sanitized AP reporting: Woman’s lawsuits say sci-fi author Neil Gaiman repeatedly sexually assaulted her
Here’s the full account from the victim (ALL the trigger warnings): “There is no safe word” - Vulture
Wow that’s…
What strikes me is how boring the abuse was. Like, boiler plate horror. Maybe this does make me think less of him as an author, not just as a person.
Well I haven’t looked into the 8 other women. But at least one of the others was absolutely raped, and another was paid off in exchange for an NDA
Right but like ‘call me master’ DUDE
Fucking do better. Not even be less a piece of shit, but a more interesting piece of shit.
Like ‘i hired a PI to learn the song you had your first kiss to, then spent a week practicing, so just as the acid and molly kick in…’
Or, idk, a choir? Some chanting?
Absolutely agree with pirating. Even buying second hand will keep money from going to their pockets/estates.
bury his name, rip the story and setting out of his creepy hands and reclaim it. Write fanfiction that specifically shits on rapey shitheads.
The thing that really pisses me off re: Good Omens in particular is that it took Pratchett out with him. And we don’t get any more of the TV show because of it, either. Even though it’s only half-Gaiman, it got ruined anyway.
american gods, good omens, sandman.
They’re great books, but I just can’t enjoy them anymore. American Gods was my favorite of the three.
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At least Caroline was already a name before the book and movie. Coraline on the other hand…
Oof for anyone named Hermione.
There’s just so much entertainment and incredible creativity out there. I genuinely don’t understand allegiances like this.
I love Sandman but tbh fuck that dude and I’ll go read one of other million alternative stories that often are just as good if not better.
The competition in creative industry is just insane and switching is basically free compared to any other industry. Like, good luck switching from John Deere if you’re a farmer but Harry Potter fans have zero barriers and still can’t do it. Spineless, weak people.
My friend has a significant portion of his sleeve tattoo dedicated to sandman so in his case O really get it
yeah, that would put me in full cope mode too, lol
If anyone is looking for some
goodfucking amazing books by an awesome and genuinely fun and good natured dude, check out Jason Pargin, he is awesome and not problematic and his books are all bangers, and he also enabled and actively supports the careers of many other super awesome and creative people. Also, listen to Bigfeets.deleted by creator
not problematic
I love the guy but I’m sure you could find an instance of him being problematic. Like his pen name, David Wong, is questionable given he’s not asian.
Why is that questionable?
Stolen Valor
Stolen valor refers to the act of falsely claiming military service or awards that one did not earn, often to gain respect, money, or other benefits.
?
How does being or not being Asian plays into this?
“Stolen valor” can be used in a humorous way beyond its original meaning as someone pretending to be a veteran. For example, there’s a funny Youtube video about a tradesperson encountering a hipster wearing Carhartt workwear and using the phrase “stolen valor” to describe him.
Ok, so it was a joke?
English is not my first language so I’m asking for clarification not trying to be snarky.
I like to think my comment qualifies as clarification. I’m not trying to be snarky either.
OK, maybe a little snarky.
Stephen King is Scots-Irish and he used the pen name Richard Bachman despite not being German.
there is a long and respected history of mocking germans.
Mocking Germans is okay but using a traditionally Chinese name isn’t?
He stopped using it for that very reason, and took accountability. People are allowed to self correct, if he understands the problem with what he did and course corrected without being called out for it what would throwing more stones accomplish?
Edit: Also, not a big enough deal to say you shouldn’t read his books.
I’m not throwing any stones, yo. I’m just pointing out you can’t exactly say he’s not problematic. I have a tolerance for problematicity so it’s of no bother to me.
If he was still using the pseudonym and making excuses to keep using it, sure, but I’m of the opinion that once someone understands what they have done wrong and took the opportunity to learn from it and do better there is no more wrong doing. There are, of course, exceptions to this, but a pseudonym that someone came up with in their 20’s and had the wherewithal later to say, “That’s not ok, I need to stop doing that” and stopped doing that for the right reasons is pretty far from a reason to call them problematic, especially when it wasn’t a decision made under any form of duress.
I’ve heard him on a bunch of podcasts and keep meaning to try his books. I’ve got a copy of this book is full of spiders, I’ll have to give it a go.
Where’s a good place to start with his stuff?
John Dies At The End was his first book and where I started. It’s also neat to watch his writing style evolve. I’d say John Dies or Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suits, those are the first books for his two ongoing series, if you’re feeling more into horror or sci-fi.
What podcasts? Are you a Dog Zone 9000 fan by chance?
Great, cheers I’ll try John dies at the end.
I’ve heard him as a frequent guest on gamefully unemployed and small beans podcasts. They’re focused on movies, he’s full of interesting takes.
The word problematic is kind of weasely used this way. The pen name had an in-universe rationale that made sense and was funny because of the incongruity. Merely alluding to the existence of ethnicity isn’t “problematic” in itself.
I’m not the on who brought the word problematic into this conversation. But I bet you if I put a poll on, say, tumblr, asking about different potentially problematic things, “pretending to be asian” would score highly on the problematic scale.
He wasn’t pretending to be asian, though, the book John Dies at The End makes that very clear and gives a silly in universe reason for the now dead pseudonym. It really was not problematic, even at the time of it being used.
Then I will rephrase – asking tumblr “is it problematic for a white person to go by an obviously Asian name as a pseudonym,” I feel that even phrased that way they would still say “yes.”
I don’t really use the word ‘problematic’ in the social justice sense myself because it’s incredibly vague, but if you’re going to specifically use the word problematic and claim that Jason Pargin isn’t, then I feel that it’s a pretty cut-and-dry “yes that was ‘problematic’” scenario.
Just a few comments up you said
He stopped using it for that very reason, and took accountability. People are allowed to self correct, if he understands the problem with what he did and course corrected
Now that you were pushed on it a bit you’re saying
It really was not problematic, even at the time of it being used.
Something about this interaction feels really dishonest.
Was there a problem he needed to take accountability for or not?
The tiktok guy?
The very same
If we’re recommending authors, my favorite is Jasper Fforde. He wrote this book called Shades of Grey (which unfortunately came out around the same time as that book) that’s about people who can only see one color (sorry, colour), and the hue that they can see determines their social standing. I have been waiting over a decade for the sequel and he just released it (Red Side Story) last year. My brain has been bad at letting me read books, so it sits on the shelf but I loved the first one.
I really hope there’s no problematicism around him (as that’s the subject of the thread), but reading his books it’s hard to imagine there could be.
I also love Jasper Fforde, and it is because he was guest of honour at a Jodi Taylor event that I also got into her books. She writes a series about time-travelling historians which I would recommend.
She also writes at a much faster pace than Fforde does these days, so that’s a plus. I was never half as annoyed waiting for GRR Martin to write A Dance With Dragons as I was waiting for Red Side Story!
ooo, thank you for the recommendation. I look forward to it. i was recently gifted Grady Hendrix’s The Southern Book Club’s Guide to Slaying Vampires. I know they say don’t judge a book by its cover, but i judged this one by its title and d(-_☆).
The last three books that weren’t technical manuals i tried to read, i got 100 pages in and realized i hadn’t retained anything. working on it, but i’m not exactly excited about reading so much. goddamn grad school broke my brain.
Thats a really cool concept, thanks for the rec, I’ll check them out.
I’ve been wanting to read his books for a while. I have quite a few that I own and still need to read, though. Any particular book recommendations from him? John Dies at the End? Zoey Ashe series?
There really are no wrong answers. The JDATE books are cosmic reality bending lovecraftian horror, and the Zoey books are a Bladerunner-esque sci-fi about a future you can see from here. The first thing i read of his was John Dies At The End, and I think that is a really good place to start.
Maybe not the most popular idea here, but I think there are a lot less Rowling fans, and a lot more Harry Potter fans. After all she didn’t really write anything noteworthy after the Harry Potter books. And the HP themed stuff like Cursed Child and Fantastic Beasts she did after the main series is let’s call it controversial, she’s a one hit wonder. Gaiman wrote a lot more and had a lot more different main characters in different settings, as far as I know, I didn’t read anything of his stuff.
I’ve read a bunch from both authors and think your point checks out. Gainan has much more variety. I’m not sure it matters though.
My guess, worthless as it is, is that Gaiman’s best works celebrated the marginalized. Loved them and taught you to love them. Respected them. His work taught people that his actions are terrible.
On the other hand, Stardust. Maybe my guess is totally wrong. Shrug
Harry Potter is so ubiquitous that most people who consume it do so without really knowing much about the author beyond their name and then there’s a decent chunk that don’t care because it doesn’t affect them and they think it’s culture war stuff that doesn’t matter.
Making people care about things that don’t directly affect them is always the hardest task.
The Sandman books were a massive part of my teenage years, one thing my sister and I agreed on back then and a source of endless conversation with my crush. Really gutted that I can’t look forward to introducing my teenagers to them.
this is actually the main sadness I have re Gaiman, I never finished the Sandman series and I just never will now.
I know there’s plenty to be said about separating the work of art from the moral judgement of the artist, but tbh it’s just like a taboo, psychologically the association turns me off whether there is a rational justification for it or not.
check out Night’s Master by Tanith Lee
I’ve heard Gaiman lifted a lot of Sandman directly from it
i still love stardust and own the movie/still watch it but i wouldnt buy it now </3
I’m out of the loop. What happened with Neil Gaiman?
Just Google “Neil Gaiman” and “scandal” for more context, but basically he used his position as a popular artist to do some gross, sex pest stuff.
He’s a predator
You can read about it here: https://www.vulture.com/article/neil-gaiman-allegations-controversy-amanda-palmer-sandman-madoc.html
Massive content warning, very disturbing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman
Check out the Sexual assault and misconduct allegations section for an overview. With how hard it is to get convictions, believing multiple accusers who have allegations across a long period of time has to be good enough. Especially when they are willing to be identified, knowing they will get punished for speaking up.
Left being the left imo.
Baby goes out with the bathwater every time. “There are plenty of other authors to read” is only going to go so far.
We won’t give a chance for dues paid, once someone is cancelled they’re done forever, and we just hope really hard that it’ll set a good so the other side will do the same.
The right accepts everybody as long as they’re saying the correct thing in the moment. The left, in the blink of an eye, will toss their most ardent supporters if there’s rumors they said the modern interpretation of the wrong thing decades ago.
Sexual assault is wrong, we all have some level of intrusive thoughts, most of us don’t act on them, we need to be critical about severity.
I’m ready for this to be as black balled as any other time I’ve brought it up.
I am going to need you to clarify your point here. Quickly.
I cannot reply to the original comment anymore, so I will say this here: having intrusive thoughts about SA’ing people is not normal, and you can get help for such things. If you experience anything like that, please please please get therapy.
[Personal Note] I removed the comment primarily because this isn’t the proper venue for that debate. Maybe we all misunderstood and maybe we didn’t. Irrelevant. Please remember that this is meant to be a safe space to goof around in. Such matters of mental health are important and should be discussed honestly and openly, just not here. Debate about forgiveness for past SA transgressions is also DEFINITELY not a subject matter for this space.
“Sir…this is a Wendy’s.”
Noted, that makes sense. I will not continue talking about this here then.
It’s almost like I said “some level of intrusive thoughts” and you immediately jumped to me condoning sexual assault.
Like there’s an inability to process degrees of trouble, and a desire to run everything as hard as possible to the worst conclusion when you hear something you don’t like.
But I’m sure I’ve already been banned.
all you had to do was not be vague, and you’re still doing it.
wait, what point are you actually trying to make about the subject at hand here?
It seems pretty clear that they have a significant amount of intrusive thoughts about sexual assault and think that abusing people from a position of power isn’t bad enough to merit removing Neil Gaiman from “nerd canon.”
Honestly, it’s stomach-turning enough to make me think they’re just trolling.
that was my first impression, and my immediate reaction was “that can’t possibly be it”. i’m going to hope against hope that an explanation is forthcoming.
im going to need you to clarify what the fuck your trying to say? rumors are very different from accusations, and we need to take those seriously. if your suggesting that rapists should get less severe punishments, you will be banned.
Credibly accused of being a rapist, iirc.
The worst of us ruin it for everyone else. It’s just like how everyone reasonable hates microtransactions in gaming, but enough unreasonable people love them that microtransactions are still more profitable than traditional income streams so they’re shoved into every game.
Reasonable people didn’t want to pay for the deeply mediocre Hogwarts Legacy, but enough dumb motherfuckers ruined it for the rest of us by making it one of the most popular games the year it released.
Note: I only know it’s deeply mediocre because I pirated it so I could critique how bad of a fucking game it is without putting money into JK Rowlings pockets. Seriously, I do no understand the love for that fucking game, it’s narratively and gameplay-wise a pile of shit for real.
Pure nostalgia injected into the first parts of it from what I heard. It was many people’s fantasy to travel to that world, from both casuals and terminally online people alike. Mediocrity doesn’t matter when the presentation fully exploits deep personal connections people have with the material.
I’d only heard about Gaiman on tumblr, and they’re fairly socially conscious over there. Frankly, I’d be surprised if he had any staying power with the crowd that previously endorsed him.
“Sexually assault your fans” wouldn’t sit well with anyone, whereas “women aren’t real women” comes out of left field.
Agreed, Gaiman fans are not the average person, I think this partially accounts for the difference (as well as the difference between how culturally acceptable transphobia is compared to rape).
how culturally acceptable
Both are treasured institutions.
Fuck these fuckers. Also thanks for their contribution to our culture. But again: fuck them
I wonder if there is any real relationship between influence and immorality, or if it’s just a salience error (those with influence are more likely to be scrutinized and immorality brought to everyone’s attention, and we just don’t notice the people who aren’t a problem while we do notice those who are).
gaiman is at least actually brilliant and well-studied. rowling is a hack and her work sucks.
but yes, fuck them both. they are monsters.
I don’t understand any of it because I do not care who writes the shit I read :shrug
And the shit I read is almost never legally obtained🇹🇩
Seek help.
People seek help within me, not the other way around kid
not up to date… what’s the haps with gaiman?
overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman#Sexual_assault_and_misconduct_allegations
some reporting: https://www.vulture.com/article/neil-gaiman-allegations-controversy-amanda-palmer-sandman-madoc.html
note: content warning, NSFL
thanks for the links!
Thing is Gaiman pissed off all feminists with the SA allegations so of course he has disappeared from the online world because the cross over between Neil Gaiman readers and SA-appologists is very small.
Whereas a sect of the feminists support her gatekeeping opinion that the only thing that can describe if you’re a woman is being born with a cunt. This one very vocal audience is not unified.
On top of that Rowling is more mainstream than Gaiman is and the general public is more willing to ignore the mudslinging world of gender politics and not get involved if it means more content from a popular mediocre scribe.
GERM’s is a better term I’ve seen around lately, stands for Gender Exclusionary Radical Misogynists.
oo, I didn’t know about this, thank you - GERM is much better than TERF, lol
Irk? Keeps them nicely sectioned off from being associated with feminism too.
I prefer the term “Genital Worrier” or more accurately because they only really worry about one type of transgender person “Penis Panickers”.
I’ve heard the R standing for Regressive since there’s nothing rad about being a bigot
I’ve also seen FART being used. Feminism Appropriating Ridiculous Transphobes
I believe it was coined by Kate Nash for her song - https://youtu.be/q2MoQJP-PhA
yeah, agreed - Gaiman’s fans are far less willing to tolerate his SA, HP fans are more general public and transphobia is more socially acceptable than SA.
Basically this post is essentially saying, “it’s a shame transphobia is so acceptable to people”
Also, I think that the fact that Harry Potter was a big part of people’s childhoods made them more reluctant to abandon it when the creator turned out to be garbage. See: Nintendo.
Bigotry, rape, and stick drift. Yup, totally comparable.
