It’s actually scary how people will never say it but understand perfectly that communism would lead to poor people doing better and that they will absolutely never allow that to happen.
It’s always China this Soviets that with the fucken examples. No one ever fucken talks about the Yugoslav mixed system, Communalist towns, Black Ukraine, or even when Syndicalists took over neighborhoods. Just as capitalism can range from late merchantslism, social democracy, and laze fare so can socialism or communism.
I mean, don’t it? The CIA did a lot to squash anything resembling a little bit too much like an experiment on the matter- foreign or domestic, ally or foe.
Yugoslavia existed for decades before it was torn apart by ethnic tensions which would’ve happened regardless of what economic system they used.
Communalist towns were largely stable up until they basically aged out of functioning due to birthrate issues. Lots of them were weird little religious communities which are just kinda subject to population collapse.
Black Ukraine didn’t last long enough to really do much of anything because of the Bolsheviks, could’ve failed or succeeded but it’s impossible to tell which what would’ve happened.
Syndicalist neighborhoods were almost all wiped out by the Pinkertons. But the ones that lasted the longest were well on track to democratically seizing some cities and townships.
I chose my list the way I did because none of them failed due to the system themselves, they either collapsed due to pre-existing social issues or were destroyed by outside forces.
Well, we don’t live in the magical realm of wonderful smelling farts and platonic forms. There’s no true capitalist countries and no true communist countries. Reasonable people know how to read from context. When we talk about communist and capitalist countries, you know damn well what we’re talking about.
There are no communist states anywhere, because Marx defined communism as a classless stateless society.
It would be wrong to pretend that there are currently any large scale “communist” societies in the world, the closest would probably be smaller communities like the Zapatistas or Rojava. Soviet style “communism” has always been a bastardization of all actual communist ideas and pretending, that that is the best version of communism that we could get is utterly delusional.
Because at the end of the day, Soviet Russia just replaced the bugoirsie with party officials and it was just red fascism.
That doesn’t mean descriptions are not useful. There’s no such thing as a capitalist society, yet communism’s entire foundation is built on critiquing it.
There are no true societies.
There’s no such thing as a capitalist society
Please elaborate?? If you make claims, that stray far from the understanding of these terms by most people, it would be really useful to know, why you see it that way.
That doesn’t mean descriptions are not useful.
Descriptions are only useful when they tell you anything useful about the things, they are describing. The Soviet Union was neither communist nor socialist, because the workers didn’t control the means of production. The state did. This is fundamental to both of these systems. Sometimes, false labels can also be harmful, because they give the other person a false idea of what you are talking about. For example, it would be wrong and also really bad, if you were to describe the Nazis as socialists, just because they were called the “national socialists”.
You missed the point entirely. You can’t with one side of your tongue say there are no true communist societies while saying there are true capitalist countries with the other. Every country exists through a combination of both free market and government intervention in the economy. Yet, for some reason, only the platonic ideal true communism counts as communism, but the applied version counts as capitalism. I’m a leftist myself, I just think the double standard is fucking idiotic.
The US government would not spend so much effort stamping out communism and murdering communists if it wasn’t an effective threat to capitalism.
And yes, China is not truly communist because they are socialist, the intermediate stage between capitalism and communism. And if you think they aren’t socialist, then you haven’t done enough research into how China actually functions.
Dictatorship doesn’t really have any meaning. The US is supposedly a democracy, yet for its entire existence the government has acted solely in the interests of the wealthy. The US is effectively a dictatorship of the bourgeois. China in the other hand is a dictatorship of the proletariat, ie, it acts in the interests of the vast majority of its people. This is why the CPC has a 90%+ satisfaction rating in China. The people recognize that the government actually works for them, and not for the capitalists.
Exactly, people suck so giving them too much choice backfires. Even in the US, the best times were when we had 90% top tax rate and heavily regulated industry coming out of WWII. Since then we’ve cit taxes reduced regulation and it’s just been steadily getting worse over the decades.
im not discussing economics in this place anymore, it’s pretty clear you guys are always talking about capitalism as a way to say America, and communism to mean whatever random notion of socialism you dream up that definitely hasn’t been tried before
I always wonder why one emoji isn’t enough. It’s always spammed in multiples of 3 or 5, as if they’re cloning themselves. One gets the point across just fine.
I’m not even a communist. I just try not to dismiss people with an attitude like that.
As you said, sometimes it’s not worth engaging, but… you did, and were a jerk about it.
If you can’t acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the poor and downtrodden banding together to advance their own interests might improve their lives, I dunno what to say. That it might not? That they’d just be stopped? That human nature will prevail and tear it all down?
Maybe. Might be worth trying. I know that’s a pipe dream, and so do you, but let people have their goddamned dreams. Maybe someday they’ll turn into something more.
I get the bitterness, communism has struggled. But it’s not the only “not capitalism” option either, a lot of people here are straight up anarchists. And that definitely hasn’t been given a fair chance, no nation can tolerate it!
anymore implies that i did at one point then stopped because of the aforementioned reasons
so you saying i don’t bring anything of substance to this particular discussion is self defeating, i already pointed out why before you pointlessly made your comment
Yeah have you seen how much the state sponsored agriculture, scientific research and medical research has helped poor people in the US? Not to mention the government food and shelter provided by the military. Imagine if it could be extended to everything!
What the fuck kind of data contains a GDP for the USSR in 2010?
E: Wait it’s you! Thank you again for your insights. I still need to consider the deflationary effects. But also, what the fuck is this data doing after the 90’s?
Because the successor states are not soviet? Does it also include China, Cuba, the DPRK, and Vietnam? Come to think of it, the units don’t make sense either.
Why would it contain them? The others you name are nominally still ruled by communist parties, and more importantly did not do the massive privatization the USSR did.
You see the same pattern in Yugoslavia, which also did the same privatization of previous state controlled industry . . .
The Soviet Union was not communist, so bad example. I agree with the premise though, I am just saying, that we should be more honest with our arguments.
I disagree with many points of Bolshevik and particularly USSR communism.
That said, it was ruled by the Communist Party. So it’s a fine example - and claims that even the flawed state socialist system of the USSR wasn’t more beneficial to the average person is ignoring exactly the natural experiment that Russia was.
Alright, then let me explain: There is no such thing as a communist state. Communism, as defined by Marx is a stateless classless society.
It was also not socialist, because the workers did not have any meaningful control over the state, which controlled the means of production. Ergo, the workers didn’t control the means of production and the Soviet Union can much better be described as state capitalism. It was also fascist.
Championing the Soviet Union as a “bull-work of communism” is also falling for American propaganda, because the US loves to portray the cold war as a struggle between capitalism and communism, which capitalism won.
To be truly empowered as leftist, we need to reject their false definitions and actually try to figure out the truth.
You don’t have to like the USSR, but fascism has a particular meaning - and the difference between even the Soviets and fascism was well defined by Mussolini, among others.
LOL
you certainly didn’t fall for American propaganda.
IDK what the people using the idiotic term ‘leftists’ to describe themselves mean by it, but they usually aren’t left.
I think you’re far from figuring out the truth.
There are plenty of ML’s who would gladly and thoroughly debunk your other claims with plenty sources and evidence (as I hope they do).
As it’s a good thing to educate people.
But I just pointed to the most staggeringly ridiculous one showing you’re pretty far gone.
You need a lot of work and studying.
Too early in the day and too hot, I have other work to do.
It’s actually scary how people will never say it but understand perfectly that communism would lead to poor people doing better and that they will absolutely never allow that to happen.
Its not the poors getting a better outcome that they are against, its the fact the 1% will no longer exist.
Let’s be honest. It’s both.
I think you’re vastly overestimating what people understand.
lol this was a perfect opportunity for the school to teach about the dangers of populist liars but they bottled it
communism is nice on paper, not in real life, because people suck. China is not truly communist.
It’s always China this Soviets that with the fucken examples. No one ever fucken talks about the Yugoslav mixed system, Communalist towns, Black Ukraine, or even when Syndicalists took over neighborhoods. Just as capitalism can range from late merchantslism, social democracy, and laze fare so can socialism or communism.
Laissez-faire not laze fare.
It means to let be in French.
100% agree with you.
I think it’s Lace fear, the fear of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps
Autocorrect has a bias against French apparently.
Because none of those never amounted to anything of significance. Because it doesnt scale.
I mean, don’t it? The CIA did a lot to squash anything resembling a little bit too much like an experiment on the matter- foreign or domestic, ally or foe.
Yugoslavia existed for decades before it was torn apart by ethnic tensions which would’ve happened regardless of what economic system they used.
Communalist towns were largely stable up until they basically aged out of functioning due to birthrate issues. Lots of them were weird little religious communities which are just kinda subject to population collapse.
Black Ukraine didn’t last long enough to really do much of anything because of the Bolsheviks, could’ve failed or succeeded but it’s impossible to tell which what would’ve happened.
Syndicalist neighborhoods were almost all wiped out by the Pinkertons. But the ones that lasted the longest were well on track to democratically seizing some cities and townships.
I chose my list the way I did because none of them failed due to the system themselves, they either collapsed due to pre-existing social issues or were destroyed by outside forces.
What is communism?
Well, we don’t live in the magical realm of wonderful smelling farts and platonic forms. There’s no true capitalist countries and no true communist countries. Reasonable people know how to read from context. When we talk about communist and capitalist countries, you know damn well what we’re talking about.
There are no communist states anywhere, because Marx defined communism as a classless stateless society.
It would be wrong to pretend that there are currently any large scale “communist” societies in the world, the closest would probably be smaller communities like the Zapatistas or Rojava. Soviet style “communism” has always been a bastardization of all actual communist ideas and pretending, that that is the best version of communism that we could get is utterly delusional.
Because at the end of the day, Soviet Russia just replaced the bugoirsie with party officials and it was just red fascism.
It’s not about it being the “best” version. It is the version that exists in real life.
Trying to have a battle over which fictional utopia is better is pointless.
There are no true societies.
That doesn’t mean descriptions are not useful. There’s no such thing as a capitalist society, yet communism’s entire foundation is built on critiquing it.
Please elaborate?? If you make claims, that stray far from the understanding of these terms by most people, it would be really useful to know, why you see it that way.
Descriptions are only useful when they tell you anything useful about the things, they are describing. The Soviet Union was neither communist nor socialist, because the workers didn’t control the means of production. The state did. This is fundamental to both of these systems. Sometimes, false labels can also be harmful, because they give the other person a false idea of what you are talking about. For example, it would be wrong and also really bad, if you were to describe the Nazis as socialists, just because they were called the “national socialists”.
Explain what Elon Musk(and all the other billionaires are for that matter) is if there is no such thing as capitalistic society.
You missed the point entirely. You can’t with one side of your tongue say there are no true communist societies while saying there are true capitalist countries with the other. Every country exists through a combination of both free market and government intervention in the economy. Yet, for some reason, only the platonic ideal true communism counts as communism, but the applied version counts as capitalism. I’m a leftist myself, I just think the double standard is fucking idiotic.
Communism isn’t government intervention.
The US government would not spend so much effort stamping out communism and murdering communists if it wasn’t an effective threat to capitalism.
And yes, China is not truly communist because they are socialist, the intermediate stage between capitalism and communism. And if you think they aren’t socialist, then you haven’t done enough research into how China actually functions.
Is a one party dictatorship part of socialism?
Dictatorship doesn’t really have any meaning. The US is supposedly a democracy, yet for its entire existence the government has acted solely in the interests of the wealthy. The US is effectively a dictatorship of the bourgeois. China in the other hand is a dictatorship of the proletariat, ie, it acts in the interests of the vast majority of its people. This is why the CPC has a 90%+ satisfaction rating in China. The people recognize that the government actually works for them, and not for the capitalists.
😂
Exactly, people suck so giving them too much choice backfires. Even in the US, the best times were when we had 90% top tax rate and heavily regulated industry coming out of WWII. Since then we’ve cit taxes reduced regulation and it’s just been steadily getting worse over the decades.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If successful all but the wealthiest would be better off, would they not? Are you thinking of the “communism” that happened in the Soviet Union.like?
im not discussing economics in this place anymore, it’s pretty clear you guys are always talking about capitalism as a way to say America, and communism to mean whatever random notion of socialism you dream up that definitely hasn’t been tried before
Well you are in the clear as this
doesn’t count as fucking discussion anyway.
I always wonder why one emoji isn’t enough. It’s always spammed in multiples of 3 or 5, as if they’re cloning themselves. One gets the point across just fine.
🙆♂️
🤣 there is plenty of other communism is great circle jerks around here, I’m sure you’ll find one where everyone agrees with you shortly
I’m not even a communist. I just try not to dismiss people with an attitude like that.
As you said, sometimes it’s not worth engaging, but… you did, and were a jerk about it.
If you can’t acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the poor and downtrodden banding together to advance their own interests might improve their lives, I dunno what to say. That it might not? That they’d just be stopped? That human nature will prevail and tear it all down?
Maybe. Might be worth trying. I know that’s a pipe dream, and so do you, but let people have their goddamned dreams. Maybe someday they’ll turn into something more.
👍
Then why bother commenting at all?
Because they like the smell of their own shit I bet
I get the bitterness, communism has struggled. But it’s not the only “not capitalism” option either, a lot of people here are straight up anarchists. And that definitely hasn’t been given a fair chance, no nation can tolerate it!
If both MLs and capitalists hate anarchists, they must be up to something good
you guys are easy to trigger
I live in Australia, I’m one of the wealthiest people in the world just by owning a house
My life is amazing
Communism sucks
You havent brought anything of substance to this discussion, so good riddance and dont let the door hit you on the way out.
english not your strong point?
anymore implies that i did at one point then stopped because of the aforementioned reasons
so you saying i don’t bring anything of substance to this particular discussion is self defeating, i already pointed out why before you pointlessly made your comment
Yeah have you seen how much the state sponsored agriculture, scientific research and medical research has helped poor people in the US? Not to mention the government food and shelter provided by the military. Imagine if it could be extended to everything!
Don’t worry Komrade, we mean real Communism not corrupt Oligarchy Russia.
Did you mean to reply to the guy above me?
https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/79130/communism-in-the-soviet-union-china-etc-wasnt-real-communism-is-that-tr
Yep real communism hasn’t been tried so your ideas are technically all hopes and dreams
And then people wonder why actual economists think communists are a joke
What the fuck kind of data contains a GDP for the USSR in 2010?
E: Wait it’s you! Thank you again for your insights. I still need to consider the deflationary effects. But also, what the fuck is this data doing after the 90’s?
Soviet block and its successor states obviously. Why would you interpret it any differently?
Because the successor states are not soviet? Does it also include China, Cuba, the DPRK, and Vietnam? Come to think of it, the units don’t make sense either.
Why would it contain them? The others you name are nominally still ruled by communist parties, and more importantly did not do the massive privatization the USSR did.
You see the same pattern in Yugoslavia, which also did the same privatization of previous state controlled industry . . .
The Soviet Union was not communist, so bad example. I agree with the premise though, I am just saying, that we should be more honest with our arguments.
(If you are wondering what I mean)
I disagree with many points of Bolshevik and particularly USSR communism.
That said, it was ruled by the Communist Party. So it’s a fine example - and claims that even the flawed state socialist system of the USSR wasn’t more beneficial to the average person is ignoring exactly the natural experiment that Russia was.
When did workers control the means of production in the USSR? When was the state abolished? When was money abolished? When was class abolished?
Communism never existed in the USSR it was run under state capitalism and the dictatorship of the proletariat never ended.
That’s nice.
Except the post is about the communist party, not communism - and which did run the USSR.
Yes, some american economist says so guys, checkmate.
Alright, then let me explain: There is no such thing as a communist state. Communism, as defined by Marx is a stateless classless society.
It was also not socialist, because the workers did not have any meaningful control over the state, which controlled the means of production. Ergo, the workers didn’t control the means of production and the Soviet Union can much better be described as state capitalism. It was also fascist.
Championing the Soviet Union as a “bull-work of communism” is also falling for American propaganda, because the US loves to portray the cold war as a struggle between capitalism and communism, which capitalism won.
To be truly empowered as leftist, we need to reject their false definitions and actually try to figure out the truth.
No, it wasn’t.
You don’t have to like the USSR, but fascism has a particular meaning - and the difference between even the Soviets and fascism was well defined by Mussolini, among others.
LOL
you certainly didn’t fall for American propaganda.
IDK what the people using the idiotic term ‘leftists’ to describe themselves mean by it, but they usually aren’t left.
I think you’re far from figuring out the truth.
You are not even gonna engage with the rest of the argument? I think that was the much more important part.
There are plenty of ML’s who would gladly and thoroughly debunk your other claims with plenty sources and evidence (as I hope they do).
As it’s a good thing to educate people.
But I just pointed to the most staggeringly ridiculous one showing you’re pretty far gone.
You need a lot of work and studying.
Too early in the day and too hot, I have other work to do.