- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
You must log in or register to comment.
Too many commenters here do not understand anything about how any of it works, especially how first past the post voting works. Progressives do not seem to understand that the system has not rejected them, but the voters have.
It is mostly relentless propaganda for the oligarchs that has captured the country. That’s the problem, and it is not fixed by any of the suggestions here.
Not sure this makes sense. I think the window shifts right as people continue to vote right.
From the Wikipedia article about the Overton window:
The most common misconception is that lawmakers themselves are in the business of shifting the Overton window. That is absolutely false. Lawmakers are actually in the business of detecting where the window is, and then moving to be in accordance with it.
Or we can go directly to the bottom frame like we’re gonna do - but go ahead and keep rationalizing why your moral pedestal was too lofty to vote for Kamala.
Only fascists can be accurately represented by Kamala Harris.
So you really think we’re better off with Bonespurs? Cuz realistically he was the only other viable choice, and reality trumps moral purity pedestals.
IMO the only way around this problem in the USA is to either (A) get a third party to the point of legitimacy where people will take them seriously be winning seats in the house and senate, and eventually running for the presidency, or (B) win a primary in one of the two major parties. By election day there is nothing to do but vote for the least worst option.
Gotta switch to Approval Voting for single-seat elections and the proportional variant for legislatures.
That would help
This is true, but it’s also STILL WORSE to vote for the greater evil. You need to change the options available to you to fix this.
It’s also true that you get backlashes normally if the system doesn’t get to far out of wack. FDR wasnt right of Hoover Coolridge and Harding. Sure one can argue overall we were shifting to the right… But we were NEVER going to be left of center so long as the U.S. existed, because the constitution is built on capitalism. Capitalism has a slow decay, can it be fixed? Maybe. Is it fixable now, maybe not. Could we have fixed it if we followed Carter with a closer to center President instead of Reagan, A LOT easier to have done it then… It took 60 years to get taxes on the rich to this point.
I don’t think the constitution is very capitalist tbh
deleted by creator
With no scale this is absolutely meaningless
lol, get this nerd. It’s not meant to be a scientific graph like a Moody diagram for calculating things from, it’s illustrating a concept which it does perfectly.
Ok. So apply this to 2016. The left choice was establishment neoliberal who if had won would have put left leaning judges on the Supreme Court ensuring the court for decades. Since she lost a far right extremist won who captured the judicial branch. I guess this doesn’t count because people didn’t vote for the lesser evil. Or does it?
So the following election again was establishment neoliberalism who won and basically had the most progressive policy’s of the last century. I guess that moved us right?
Next election, let’s see, establishment neoliberal again. Hard to pinpoint if she was more left or less left because she ran a campaign catering to “on the fence conservatives” but was part of a very progressive administration.
Maybe this what happens when you don’t vote for the lesser evil. That’s all I see.
“Joe Biden has the most progressive policies of the last decade” - incredible.
I can think of zero politicians with a further left policy platform than Joe Biden. Think of all his progressive moves, like allowing the overturn of roe vs wade, Joe Biden who railed against school racial integration policies, Joe Biden author of the 94 crime bill, Joe Biden who continued building the wall, pro union Joe Biden who compelled the train unions to accept the companies deal. Joe Biden who lends his support both materially and in influence to right wing governments in Ukraine and Israel, supporting genocide in the latter. Etc etc. A real hero of the people this guy, fly out the red flag.
like allowing the overturn of roe vs wade
Voters did this by not voting lesser evil
Joe Biden who railed against school racial integration policies, Joe Biden author of the 94 crime bill,
This was not part of his presidential administration and not my claim.
pro union Joe Biden who compelled the train unions to accept the companies deal
And went back and got sick days for the union after the deal was signed. Only president to march with the union.
Biden who lends his support both materially and in influence to right wing governments in Ukraine and Israel, supporting genocide in the latter. Etc etc. A real hero of the people this guy, fly out the red flag.
I never made the claim he wasn’t a neoliberal. I only cited the fact that he was the most progressive president we’ve seen in the country for as long as I’ve been alive.
Ah yes, so the best option is to not vote and let them succeed unimpeded.
I’m all for voting for a better candidate, but we have a broken 2 party system, and it very much is if you don’t vote for one of the two main parties, you are pretty much just not voting at all.
I don’t vote for this person. I’m voting against that person.
Dems have been nothing but a doormat for the last 30 years, the party of complicity. I’m absolutely positive they’ve been playing the dupe and moving the US further to the right all the while playing the victim.
Could have fixed the electoral college but didn’t. Could have codified abortion into the constitution but didn’t. Could have filled RBGs supreme court seat without Senate confirmation regardless of the pearl clutching, but didn’t. Could have put pressure on the justice department to get their investigation done with to get the trial for Trump for treason at least started…but fuck me, they didn’t… seriously- they couldn’t put a case together in 3 years???
Could have, should have, would have. Fucking useless.
I agree, but also stand by my point. In a horrible 2 party system, they’re simply “not conservative”, and so I’m forced to vote for them. That being said, Bernie should have won.
Bernie got railroaded.
They are conservative though.
In my country we stopped voting the socdem party, because they betrayed the workers. From one election to the next they lost like half the votes.
For 4 years the conservative party ruled. But after that the socdem change their politics we voted them again and had had a fairly leftist government for the last year.
They are slacking again so I plan not to vote next election, hoping thar more people get the memo, they sink again in votes and sit to think on why people felt betrayed, and change for the better.
4 years of conservative party were worthy giving that after the socdems turned left again we conquer a lot of things that we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise if we would have keep on voting their moderate centrist version.
We also voted for third parties when they said that it was throwing your vote away, and the other party got almost the same votes as the socdems(too bad they were not that good once they sat on office). My point is that courage is needed to make a change.
In the US the ruling party fills lifetime judicial appointments, which means the 4 years of conservative rule can have decades of lasting impact that will thwart any progressive policies that the next leftish government tries to implement.
You can get around the courts. FDR did.
Then they better fucking learn quick, huh?
Ah yes, so the best option is to not vote and let them succeed unimpeded.
The best option is to scream at anyone who isn’t fucking delighted that your side of the party has moved so far to the right that they’re supporting genocide.
No one can gripe about your shit wing of the party.
That’s exactly the voter attitude, that gets the broken 2 party system. Politicians know this kind of thinking and use it to their advantage.
deleted by creator
also known as
No.
Look at how the system actually works. There are two choices. Both candidates have to compete for all the people who vote. If you sit out the election that doesn’t mean either candidate will try to get your vote; they’ll ignore you and go after the people who do vote.
Someone else came up with this analogy. It’s like the trolley problem except the there’s a third option. The third choice is to throw the switch to “Neither,” but “Neither” isn’t connected and the trolley kills someone anyway.
Make your 3rd party an arm of the dems. A coalition of sorts
If you’re saying that the Left should vote for the Dems I agree.
I’d love to have Bernie as President, but our side dropped the ball twice and failed to get him nominated.
Or as Rush put it, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
My friend, what you wrote totally ignores the passage of time. Everything you wrote is true if we only look at one election, and none of it is true if we consider the passage of time and how pressure operates. If the political party is not getting votes, if all of their candidates are losing, either they will disband or they will find different policies to push.
Actually I paid attention to history. The pendulum swung the other way a few years back; arch Conservative Ronald Reagan courted the Left by picking the first woman on the Supreme Court and making Colin Powell his Number One guy.
George Carlin did a great job blowing this nonsense apart
If George was alive today he’d be begging people to vote against Trump.
No he wouldn’t, and the video I linked explains clearly why. Maybe watch it and try to comprehend what he’s saying there.
Let me explain something you may not be aware of.
The man was an entertainer. His job was to make people laugh. I can cherry pick his work and come up with all kinds of absurd ideas he put into his act.
If the only argument you can make is based on a comedy routine, then we have nothing more to discuss.
Let me explain something you may not be aware of. Entertainers often say serious things that cannot be said in other mediums. If you don’t understand that Carlin was doing political commentary, and appreciate his insights then you’re a very dim individual indeed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_George_Carlin_Show
George did a TV show on the FOX network.
I love his stuff, but that doesn’t blind me to the fact that he was primarily an entertainer.
The fact that you thought this was a good argument shows how utterly intellectually impoverished you are.
Yeah bro, the anti war hippie who was challenging the FCC in the 70s would have totally been team corporatocracy. Carlin had several interviews where he talked about how the two party system in America is an illusion of choice and ragged on Bill Clinton for being phony, and that’s the farthest left liberal candidate in like 30 years, a fucking neoliberal.
Yall sound exactly like the conservatives claiming MLK.
Like I said, if you can’t come up with anything except a comedy act, we have nothing to discuss.
Here’s a clip from his early days, proof that he couldn’t possibly have ever changed his thoughts about anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKO8qMJtbng this is from the 90s through the early 2000s, but I imagine you’ll find another reason to dismiss his words to pretend you know what was in his heart was different tho.
For the record, I don’t agree with his defeatist outlook, I think there’s comedians with better takes on American politics, but to pretend Carlin would be blue MAGA just because you wish him to be is ridiculous.
If 5% of the general election popular vote for POTUS, knowing that the candidate cannot win, still voted for the Green Party platform then what effect would that have upon the Democratic Party platform?
On a five point difficulty scale this is a two. The test gets way harder than this.
If my grandmother had wheels she’d be a tea trolley.
Right now the reality is the Donald Trump is going to take office because a lot of people didn’t vote for the alternative.
All the ‘what if…?’ games in the world isn’t going to change that.
Thank you for the opportunity to teach.
If my grandmother had wheels she’d be a tea trolley.
Minimization.
Right now the reality is the Donald Trump is going to take office because a lot of people didn’t vote for the alternative.
Red herring.
All the ‘what if…?’ games in the world isn’t going to change that.
Minimization.
This is a bit better than typical nonsense because there’s two tactics in a sandwich. Next is usually ad hominem. But, this one may have another trick up their sleeve.
Simply naming fallacies isn’t teaching. The point of learning fallacies isn’t so that you can just name them and feel like you’ve made a point.
I asked a question. I received a fallacy sandwich in return. There’s no point in investing further.
Simply naming fallacies isn’t teaching.
unsupported
The point of learning fallacies isn’t so that you can just name them and feel like you’ve made a point.
strawman
None of your assertions have been supported
unsupported
How do you not choke on your irony?
With well-reasoned and nuanced principles supported by vast experience.
The point of teaching is sharing knowledge, not just poking holes in whatever argument you can (intentional hyperbole, not strawman)
The point of learning fallacies isn’t so that you can just name them and feel like you’ve made a point.
strawman
Instead of just “strawman, therefore you’re wrong” and leaving it at that, how about you explain what was incorrect in that statement. That way you become more understood, and everyone understands you more.
This isn’t a courtroom debate. This isn’t a debate you “win” or “lose”. This is a debate where everyone should be trying to understand each other, so that everyone ends up better off by the end. This sort of debate is a cooperative thing, not competitive.
The audience I wish to reach doesn’t need their hand held as a child.
deleted by creator
Right now the reality is the Donald Trump is going to take office because a lot of people didn’t vote for the alternative.
Red herring.
You’re going to have to explain that in detail. Trump got more votes. He won. How is that anything except a cold, hard fact?
Everything you said.
Pompous.
You understand how things work! Ignore the apathy trolls. They are trying to silence your vote. Here’s what actually happens if you vote for the lesser of two evils. You’re rights are protected and next time use the primary process to pick someone even better.
Do yourself a favor and read the novels of Ross Thomas. He was a Washington reporter turned crime novelist. All his books have a strong political basis. Two of his best; “The Fools In Town Are On Our Side,” an ex-CIA hot shot is hired to clean up a small Southern city by making it so corrupt even the pimps will vote for reform; “The Porkchoppers,” a nuts and bolts look at a Union election with characters ranging from White House aides and Washington power mongers to factory line workers.
You’re rights are protected and next time use the primary process to pick someone even better.
Oh, Like how we voted for the lesser evil in 2020 and didn’t have a fucking primary in 2024. Don’t tell us to do something that your party makes sure doesn’t happen.
Lol. What planet do you live on?
You’re rights are protected
Like how Roe V. Wade was protected when Biden got into office? Like our right to protest the atrocities which our taxes are paying for in Gaza?
Fixed
There is a better way! Ranked choice voting means no more voting for the lesser of two evils. Look into fo yourselves and others - vote to change the voting systems near you!
Five states banned RCV this past election. You’ll never guess which group made that happen. But hey, both parties are bad.
RCV won’t fix bourgeois democracy anyway.
Not in isolation, no. We have it in Australia, but we’re not socialist.
But I’d say first past the post voting is antithetical to democracy and one ought to fight to remove it.
I feel as though there’s a significant amount of extra info that isn’t strictly conveyed here.
The core issue is that you only have 2 real options in america, third parties may as well not exist. So, come election time, your harm reduction option is to vote for the least evil party.
But that’s not the way to solve the issue, and neither is abstaining or voting third party, IMO. The way to solve the issue happens between votes. Picketing, protesting, demonstrating, taking action, making noise. You won’t solve the broken 2 party system at election time. But you do have to actually get out and take action, not just say that you will and keep letting the overton window shift right.
(Take with a pinch of salt because I’m not american)
But that’s not the way to solve the issue
So… revolution? It worked once before!
I mean sure! Take the whole CEO situation and springboard off that, you find yourselves in circumstances similar to pre-revolution France so the conditions are right.
I mean, you’re not the first one to say thing. People picket, people protest, people make noise. College students are arrested, protests either get Zero media attention (or worse, are regulated to an ineffective location because of regulations) or the protestors switch to disruptive tactics that actually get noticed and are demonized by everyone for it.
Like I keep hearing this “You have to go out and take action”, EVERYONE IS! People are walking up and knocking on people’s doors and getting punched in the face. People are outside houses getting cops called on them and arrested. Everyone is now more able to point out the bad actors and exactly how that’s effecting the parties and policies.
You have Bernie Sanders and AOC out protesting and “making noise” in the spot light every damn day.
- third party doesn’t work
- you can’t solve the 2 party system
- The way to solve the issue happens between votes
our election cycle is every 2 years or less depending on the occasion. IT IS ALWAYS ELECTION CYCLE IN AMERICAN POLITICS. They have to plan early and extensively to knock off any candidate they don’t want (pulling national resources to squash anyone they view “outside” their establishment).
At this point the “make noise” comments need to reiterate what the end goal is for that make noise. You’re setting people up to just be angry and upset and protest the inequality or inefficiencies of our system when that’s exactly what the politicians want (it’s a feature, not a bug). No amount of protesting, a litany of policies at that, will be effective when the complete political spectrum is against change. Take a look at the Civil Rights Era and the voting that was concluded, it looks completely unlike anything we have now.
The political parties have strengthened their stranglehold (I’ve argued in the past that they are “political parties” in name only, they are more incorporated or an oligarch representatives at this point and should be regulated as such). They listen to power only, the power was taken from the working and lower classes a long time ago. We get our shows we can put on, but it doesn’t move the needle anymore. It used to at least force them to talk about moving the needle, even that’s gone now.
I think its quite obvious that the people I’m advising to get out and take action are the people who… aren’t? I’m well aware that action is being taken and that it is growing in numbers, but more needs to be done.
That aside, how does voting third party or abstaining from voting affect change against the issues you’ve highlighted above? Because I don’t disagree with the issues you’ve raised.
How exactly does “picketing, protesting, demonstrating, taking action, making noise” affect change against those issues, when the Democrats will just ignore you and get your vote anyway?
I’m really wondering if next election cycle we’re gonna hear people say “we’ve got to vote them in first then pull them left” again. It was a notably absent phrase this past election. Biden most certainly did not move left from his “Fundamentally nothing will change.” platform.
Well, I was reliably told by ten million Vote Blue No Matter Who people that there wouldn’t be another elections if Trump won, so I guess we’ll just never know…
…and those people call me defeatist. Sheesh!
You don’t think you can affect change outside of your vote?
The core issue is that you only have 2 real options in america, third parties may as well not exist.
There’s false assumptions necessary to reach this conclusion. Typically the false assumption is that the role of a third party is to win. The root cause of making this assumption is often that the scope of evaluation has been limited to one term or cycle.
I’m not convinced that voting for a third party has any positive effect, in one election cycle or over longer time. But I’m open to hearing your perspective.
The false assumption that most make is that one cycle doesn’t effect the next.
However, if a third party garners just 5% of the general election vote for POTUS then their platform and higher quality candidate will be on every ballot in the next cycle.
If there’s a third choice on every ballot then the the third party platform places tremendous and immediate pressure upon the platforms of the two major parties. The third party doesn’t actually win unless the other refuse to compromise. Long term, the continued threat is of greater value than a subsequent victory.
But, the electoral scheme doesn’t work unless leftists trust leftists to determine the collective risk of voting third party for the states they reside in. Even Jacobin failed to trust twice.
Things are pretty fucked. Electoral means are slow. I tend to advocate for boycott, strike, and riot (encompassing a wide scope of wisely breaking laws).
I suppose that is a tangible way to affect change under the existing electoral system, so more power to you. I guess, with that in mind, you need to vote third party on an occasion when third party will actually get that 5% threshold, which as you say takes trust.
need to vote third party on an occasion when third party will actually get that 5% threshold
non sequitur
You weren’t really very open to ideas. And, you were the best of the bunch in this thread.
That’s needlessly dismissive, I was repeating my understanding of what you’d said
I’m sorry you feel that way. Try something different next time.
All you do by consistently voting the “lesser of two evils” is kicking the hangover down the road by keeping to drink more alcohol. You know every time that it will get worse and the sooner you get through the hangover, the sooner you could actually move on, but in fear of the hangover you grab the bottler another time.
With the measures you mentioned the problem is in particular that the current Democrats are not caring about them. They assume they will get the votes nonetheless and if they don’t it is fine because the Republicans will cover most of the donors interests anyways. Making noise only works, if it is followed by consequences. Leaving political violence aside, the only consequence a normal person can realize is not giving the vote.
This. I’m in the US and was fully prepared to protest whether Harris or Trump won, I’m opposed to them both in different ways. Trump and team may get me off my ass very quickly though.
OK, what else do you suggest? Not voting? That just speeds the process up. Voting for the small but much better option? In a FPTP voting system (like the American one that I assume you’re talking about), the spoiler effect means that’s as good as not voting.
This is my issue with the leftist community in general, and especially the ml group. Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.
As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he’s describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.
Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with.
I don’t think you got the main point of the video. Not only “large” change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.
So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?
If so, that seems not currently feasible.
Maybe you should watch it, then you don’t have to ask such an ignorant question.
Sounds like you aren’t clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?
I’m quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.
He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or “teleporting”.
As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control.
Was supporting genocide “damage control?”
Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.
Was supporting genocide “damage control?”
Here’s the question I asked.
That’s the question I answered.
Which would you rather support?
- Genocide
- Genocide + fascism + other bad shit (probably including genocide 2)
Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.
The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control
When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is “how can we bring about the end of this government?”, not “how can I maintain the good times for me personally?”. But Democrats are callous psychopaths.
Also, it’s already fascism you ghoul.
Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not “damage control” even though you love him for it.
I think you’re missing several things. First, if the phenomenon is accurate, and it is, then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems. Recognize your problems, and then work to solve them directly.
Second, the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state. But how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump, when in fact their state was nowhere close to 50/50 so realistically they could have voted for anyone?
Third, there is no single leftist community. There are many different leftist communities that overlap and agree on various points. Also, you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth. We all recognize the current situation, and we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not. In other words, your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable, it sucks but there’s nothing you can do, and that’s certainly true if you believe it.
then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems
Sorry, but how the fuck did you get to that opinion? Sharing knowledge and ideas is how humanity thrives, but unless I’m misunderstanding you you’re saying that we should each individually find a solution to the problem we are all in together.
the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state
The spoiler effect will always exist to some extent in any FPTP system. Sure, it won’t make nearly as much difference in a one sided state as it will in a swing state, but the effect still exists, and makes it much harder for a better party to gain traction while not losing a lot of ground in the mean time.
how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump
The people that didn’t believe this and so didn’t vote are probably the reason that Trump won the popular vote, and that the republicans have a majority in the senate and the house.
you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth
Acting like “voting for the lesser evil is evil and therefore unacceptable” seems pretty idealist to me. I’m well aware that most people here are aware of how shit the world is, and are doing their part to improve it, which is something I appreciate and want to support. It’s just that from what I can tell, the recent US election was the wrong place for idealism.
we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not
Sorry, mate, but don’t assume. I’m not american, I’m kiwi. And since we don’t have a completely shit voting system, I always vote as a huge idealist and never vote for one of the big two, because in MMP that’s not a wasted vote.
your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable
No. I’ve just accepted that, at least for this cycle of US elections, the better approach would be playing defensive. It’s not that the current reality is unchangeable, it’s that positive change will be very slow.
OK, what else do you suggest?
I suggest that the party take the fucking hint and move to the left. But that’s not an option you will consider.
That’s absolutely an option I would consider, but it’s not an option that 99% of people can actually act on.
Well, shouting at the electorate to shut up and love genocide because it’s the “lesser” evil didn’t work.
OK, what else do you suggest?
Not many ask.
Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.
This is my issue with almost everyone. They believe they already know what others think, that no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered.
My suggestions are as follows: Consider that your scope of evaluation is only one cycle. As a consequence there may be nuance in system function that you’d not considered. Then ask the same question but in good faith.
not many ask
Yes, they do ask a lot, at least a far as I’ve seen. I still haven’t seen a good alternative to voting for the lesser evil in a FPTP system.
They believe they already know what others think
My opinion on that was based on the whole “don’t vote for Harris, she’ll support genocide” thing I saw earlier this year. If I’m wrong about that, or anything else, I’m more than happy to be corrected.
no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered
Most people don’t think that no one could have a good alternative, they just don’t know of anyone who does.
your scope of evaluation is only one cycle
You’re assuming that’s my only scope. Both the short term and the long term are important, but from what I’ve seen the short term tends to get ignored in this sort of community.
bad citizen. Bad!
Sorry, mate, but don’t assume. I’m not american, I’m kiwi.
They’re not even a citizen, they’re just here to spread anti-democratic voting propaganda from other fucking side of the ocean where they don’t have to deal with the effects or care about any actual causes.
Do you simply have no answer, or are you withholding them so you can feel smug?
Do you simply have no answer, or are you withholding them so you can feel smug?
false dichotomy
*Long term effects of a broken 2 party voting system…
FTFY
