Title text:
Now that I’ve finally gotten an electric vehicle, I’m never going back to an acoustic one.
Transcript:
Transcript will show once it’s been added to explainxkcd.com
Source: https://xkcd.com/3214/
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I can kinda get the range anxiety comments though - it sucks having to keep daisy chaining extension leeds to go further.
Well if you run out of power it is easier to get someone to bring a container of gas than to get a truck filled with batteries to come and charge you for 30 min. The US has LOTS of large, rural areas with very poor EV support. Half the time the EV lots near me have some sort of problem and are shut off. They make more sense for dense, urban areas where you do lots of short trips and have access to high speed chargers.
Gonna get blasted for this, given the overall sentiment here in the comments towards EVs, but EVs are going to be used to monitor people everywhere they go and have killswitches, and other shit I’d not wanna deal with.
You say they’re going to, but EVs already exist and are pretty damn popular, especially hybrids. What makes you think that EVs are going to monitor people beyond what regular license plate tracking already does? What kind of killswitch? This sounds like fearmongering.
They said when cable tv started that it would be ad free, it was for a while. Then you’d own your media, now it is all streaming. Then you’d have your own software, now it is going to subscription based more and more. Why would you think the current state of tech is the way it will always be? Car companies are already going towards data gathering though it isn’t limited to EVs. It is much easier to control every aspect of your vehicle though with an EV.
Them being electric/having digital components lets companies monitor your vehicles the same way they do monitor your online presence.
You can look up the killswitch thing, it’s planned in Europe iirc. It’s being sold as being introduced so as to “reduce drunk driving”, but obviously once that’s in place it can be used to manufacture car accidents and the sort.
Any time someone says these “technological advancements” are anything but innocuous, they get rammed as “fear-mongering”.
Every car you’ve ever seen on the road is electric and has digital components. Electric vehicles just use a direct drive motor powered by a battery instead of powered by gas combustion. Your 2026 lifted F250 is just as digital as your 2012 used Nissan Leaf.
The killswitches in question would apply to all new vehicles, not just electric ones. The US version of the law makes no provisions for remote shutdown, only for something akin to a passive breathalyzer. “Obviously once that’s in place it can be used to manufacture car accidents” your brain is conspiracy poisoned and you’re listening to talking points from the likes of Ron Desantis. Please take a break from the internet and go enjoy your local park.
These are the vehicles to have in the Apocalypse. Carry your own solar panels and charge it. No need to get fuel since gasoline only stays fresh for 6 months.
Personally I’d go with an electric bike since it needs significantly less time to charge given the same number of solar cells.
i had this idea only i planned to retire on the beach and eat fish. turned out to be no fun after a week camping in a jeep. Apocalypse in the basement. i wonder if there’s a siren like tornados
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EV’s are probably best for an actually realistic scenario where energy infrastructure is destroyed or there is a mass fuel shortage, both things that happen all the time around the world in times of crisis.
But as far as actually apocalyptic scenarios it’s hard to beat a bicycle which doesn’t require a global supply chain to maintain.
But you need to supply and maintain the chain
au contraire my finely dressed friend:
Well… there are things like tires, tubes and components that would be hard to create.
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had a regular 110 plug adapter and extension cord. plug in anywhere but takes longer than charge station. never used it in 20,000 miles. about same as a gasser. hit 1/4 tank stop and fill up. imagine the switch from horses to gas was hard to figure out for a while.
Plugable hybrids are a good compromise, when people remember to actually plug them in and run on electric when they don’t need to travel long distances.
They also have the worst of both worlds shoved together
They also have the best of both worlds shoved together, when used in an ideal general case situation. Zero emissions for urban use, emissions limited only on the very occasional when needed, and even then if it has enough stops to call EVs viable, you are going to get a significant reduction in emissions if you plug along the way.
Range extender hybrids are the goat
The combustion engine can always run at optimal rpm for torque and the drivetrain is 100% electric
A LOT simpler to construct too, it’s basically an EV with a built in generator
They’d be the best compromise for me. I usually drive short distances in the city, but maybe once or twice a year I want to do the 800km journey back to my home city in the next province. Train travel isn’t an option.
I have a similar situation and I just rent a car for those twice a year trips 🤷 Still cheaper than paying for gas
Literally impossible, given you have to pay for the gas of those rentals plus however long you keep them until you get back.
I’d rather not have to deal with a petrol/diesel engine than go long distances, but saying that is a bit of a non issue to go a long distance in an EV in Europe.
That’s called privilege.
I only drive acoustic cars. They sound even better
The only real question is: does it go “wooo wooo!” ?
Every once in a while I want the sound effects for my EV. Some of the most iconic “muscle” cars are just sound effect so it’s the same thing.
- if a mustang is all sound effect, my EV should be able to sound d the same
- if a Subaru has fake shift points with its CVT to help the car bros feel more comfortable, why can’t my EV
I want to come up to a red light in my EV and out-rev the corvette next to me
MachE has a sound effect. Frankly, it’s kinda sad.
I want to be able to choose my own noise (being fully aware why that is a bad idea more broadly). Can you imagine driving through the grocery store parking lot making a TIE fighter sound?
I want Gregorian chants or Baroque mandolin music.
Solid choice.
The problem is I do think it’s a good idea (but retro “space invaders” sounds). There’s a good argument that cars moving walking speed near a pedestrian’s ought to make enough noise to ensure the pedestrians are aware of them. I’d rather be annoyed by the noisy eenvironment than run over
Once it’s intentional to do this then yes, why not pick your own?
To be clear, I do think they should make noise, yes please. Totally agreed. When they’re moving slowly enough that people can get out of the way (and the tire noise is a little less significant), they should be making an artificial sound.
Also, Space Invaders sounds would be an amazing choice; along the same lines, the Pac-Man “wakka-wakka-wakka” would be awesome, especially if you have a yellow car. Come to think of it, the Fozzie Bear “wokka wokka!” would be hilarious, too.
I just think allowing people to choose a sound that’s automatically blasted at loud volume from their car at any given time is something we’ve already had a lot of experience with, given that stereo systems have been standard on cars for decades now; and we can be certain that people can’t be trusted with it–especially when they themselves can’t hear it. There are absolutely people who will use that power to broadcast ads, or their own recorded voice shouting obscenities, or a high-pitched screech sound that harms people’s hearing.
Or, even worse, they’ll change the sound to silence or something super quiet. Maybe to be malicious, but probably more so just because they find it annoying in some niche situation (like in their garage or whatever).
Allowing people to choose from a certain subset of options, or having some sort of onboard algorithm try to detect whether the sound is an appropriate volume (and replacing it with a substitute if needed) might be a good compromise.
Too true
If you sing-a-long in them you get better milage.
It’s a valid argument if you don’t live near good charging infrastructure. I have an EV in an area with ample charging. But when we went to visit my in-laws who live in a more rural area, it was a big challenge. The only chargers around were so slow that it would take 24+ hours to charge the car. And if you run out, you can’t get someone to bring a can of gas.
In an urban area, I love the reduced maintenance and not getting gas. On a road trip with kids, I don’t love killing half an hour in a grocery store with my kids amassing armloads of candy faster than I can put it back.
EVs are great, but we can’t automatically dismiss any complaint a hesitant person has.
My Tesla trip planner did something I never would have thought of but it works. It planned for at most 20 minutes at superchargers. It meant I never had to wait long at the cost of my next leg of the trip being a bit shorter. But I imagine it does optimize overall trip time, not just individual charging time. Remember batteries can’t charge linearly: there’s always a curve and charging always slows down as it gets full. Charging to 80% or similar takes advantage of the steep part of the curve to save you time
My biggest charging delay on trips is my own fault, always looking for a supercharger rather than destination chargers
- I’ve always given up pretty fast trying to find hotels with chargers
- when visiting family I never asked to plug in because I wasn’t sure whether they would make a big deal about it
24hour charge that’s like charging at under 3kw, that’s the rate at which a standard electrical outlet can charge in the UK, that’s the same power as my kettle. The V2L function on my EV can kick out more power than that.
In Canada, a level one charger is 1.4kw
I have had some issues with my electric car in rural areas between FL and GA and I will say the charging infrastructure has gotten much better in the past year in that area. Especially since most cars can also use the Tesla chargers too if you need to.
A car powered by gasoline? It’ll never take off. I mean, what will you do if it runs out of gas? Start a war in the middle east?
Crazy concept, fill you car with a huge tank of explosive and toxic liquid, and if you leave the car running on a closed garage the fumes will kill you! Get this, they have to drive all that liquid around in large tanker trucks.
Do they think we’re stupid?
A car powered by gasoline? It’ll never take off.
Well, it’s a car, not a plane.
Also imagine the logistics! You would have to refine the oil, get it from places all over the world and distribute it to all the gas stations all over the country. With electric cars you can just tap the already existing power grid.
Plus, have you seen all the iron and other metals that have to be mined shipped, refined, shipped, and then made in to parts, shipped again, and then assembled, and finally shipped to the dealer for a single ICE car?
This was Jeremy Clarkson’s stupid argument against hybrids. Boomer rant.
I’ve heard it so many times, and it’s probably the dumbest thing I’ve heard about electric cars other than the guy who wanted to know how you would drive your EV at night if it charged from solar panels.
Not to speak of the fact, that you cannot fill up at home or every other lamp post. You have to drive to designated stations to find gasoline. Ridiculous! What if the next station is too far to reach it, before you run out?
Even better…the oil is not sold on the free market of supply demand economics, they actually have price fixing cartels.
I seem to recall that back in the day there were electric cars before gasoline ones, and that was an argument at the time. Electricity was already becoming ubiquitous and putting up more wires was pretty easy compared to the logistics needed for gas production, transport, storage and dispensing. Gas won out due to the fact that it’s energy density was so much higher compared to batteries of the time… and probably a lot of lobbying by people invested in that stuff.
Gas won out due to the fact that it’s energy density was so much higher compared to batteries of the time
Gas won out because US found huge reserves of oil and it was 3 cents a barrel . Ford actually planned for his model T to run on ethanol, which could be made free on any farm, but Standard Oil made sure that would never happen.
Yeah 100 years ago the argument may have actually made sense.
Luckily the best factorio players of the world ganged up and solved it
You toss it out and get a new one of course!
“It said E for end, so I threw it out” - Patrick Star
As an EV owner, I have recieved an interesting amount of reasons why people won’t buy them:
- The autonomy is not real (so far it’s been in my case and in any case, in italy, for how people drive, the declared consumptions are all fake because people here only drives by pressing the accelerator to the bottom)
- What if there’s a blackout in the whole city and you can’t charge your car? (The whole city, for a long time? I’d be worried about other stuff, but go on…)
- What if all the public plugs are occupied when you want to charge and you find yourself without battery to go to "ork tomorrow? (ALL OF THEM? At the same time? And why are you waiting to charge your car until it reaches 1% charge?)
- What if you come back from a long trip and have a 10% battery remaining and then you recieve an emergency call and have to leave immediately and you can’t because the 50-60km you have in your battery are not enough to reach your destination? (I can get to a quick charge station and get 200km in 15mins or so? The world is not ending? And if it’s THAT urgent then I should be calling an ambulance anyway, because I probably need one)
- I don’t want an automatic car! I love changing my gear! (Thank fuck I got rid of the clutch and the gears… never been happier when I drive!)
- Ah… but the speed, the torque of a thermic sports car… (Dude, you can’t afford a sports car, what the thell are you talking about? And even if I can’t either and I have a pretty average EV, you should just press the accelerator of an EV to the bottom and see for yourself)
- But it’s all about the feeling… the sound… (oh, I get it now… you want to “feel powerful” making everyone look at you and your noise making machine… yeah, I can’t compete there, and I don’t even want to anyway)
- But the electricity is made by burning fuel! (Most of it comes from green sources and, anyway, what the hell do you think your car run on? Water? Are you not very intelligent?)
- But the lithium comes from child labor!! (Says while casually using their iPhone, wearing clothes made in a third world country…)
After this, they usually proceed to make absurd claims like "I don’t care, I just don’t trust EVs.
What if everyone woke up at about the same time and plugged in their toasters to make breakfast? ARMAGEDDON.
ICE cars grow in fields, that’s just science.
The EV battery will wear out and cost eleventy million dollars to replace, and we have to throw all the old batteries in rivers.
EVs catch fire! no way gasoline could catch fire!
and finally, what happens if you give up on life and want to end it all? Can’t die in a sealed garage with an EV running!
The best argument against the blackout bit: Ukraine
Every single used budget EV was bought up by Ukrainians when the war started. Nissan Leafs, older Hyundai Ioniqs, Renault Zoes
Gas stations were bombed and the whole logistic chain for delivering gasoline and diesel was disrupted or prioritised for the military
But everyone had power at least for a part of the day, so they could charge EVs.
I didn’t see this one: I’ll never buy a car made after 2011 for privacy reasons. (As well as repairability)
It seems like my best bet is to retrofit an older petrol car. I’d spend a lot, probably even more than what a new car costs in cash, but I haven’t found a great ev swap plan yet, so hopefully in the future. I’ve saved a couple of totaled cars from the scrapyard so far.
I’d honestly probably spend upwards of $100k in cash on a privacy-first new EV with features I want, but apparently the car industry doesn’t want to make a product for me. (Not the slate truck)
My 2018 car has no privacy issues. Also, I DGAF about people knowing I drive to and from work. If you are really concerned about privacy, don’t use the internet.
Also, car insurance premiums increase just from the lack of privacy.
My dream car is one of those UN spec Toyota Land Cruisers that can run on any dirt water that resembles diesel and can be repaired with a roll of duct tape, a large spanner and a hammer in the middle of a jungle.
They don’t meet any emissions requirements though so they’re fully illegal in any western countries 😅
Very much similar to my own experience. The blackout is the funniest, because gas stations don’t work in a blackout, while solar panels do (assuming you disconnect them from the grid).
I would add one:
- But I couldn’t drive 1.000km without stopping (how often do you do that? It doesn’t seem safe anyway…)
What ICE car goes 1000km without filling up?
A bunch of German diesels have 70L+ tanks and can comfortably cruise under 7L/100km at highway speeds. Passat, Audi A4, A6, and A8, BMW 3, 5 and 7 series, Mercedes C, E and S class.
So the trick is just burn more fuel!
My hybrid is running at 4.8-5 L/100.
That is under 7L too…
PS: if you had a 50L tank you car can do 1.000km too
A few diesels in theory if you drive economically
maybe on the internet. and we’ll just ignore all the pollutants Diesels spew.
Oh, yeah! I forgot that one!
When you ask them how many times they found themselves with a thermic car doing 1000km without stopping they usually tell you: never, but what if I had to?
Bitch, if you need to do 1000km without stopping, you should be taking a train or a plane. Driving 10-12 hours without a single stop is bad and dangerous.
When you ask them how many times they found themselves with a thermic car doing 1000km without stopping they usually tell you: never, but what if I had to?
What if a comet was headed for your town and it has a radius of 500KM? Check and mate, libtard!
Driving 10-12 hours without a single stop is bad and dangerous.
Americans do this on July 4 weekend, the highways are carnage.
This was something I realized when we drive to my wife’s parents. It’s 2,000 km each way from our house in the US to where they are in rural Quebec, Canada and we usually drive it twice a year. The charging times sound long, but even with our petrol car most of our stops end up being between 15 to 30 minutes anyways between fueling the car, taking the dog to grass, taking turns going to the toilet so the dog isn’t alone in the car, getting food and giving me a chance to eat so I’m not trying to drive and eat at the same time.
I think the real challenge of electric range anxiety is that it still takes planning, at least in some parts of the US. There are areas on our route where it might be 100 kilometers to the next fast charger, and there’s no guarantee that all of them will be working or compatible with a car’s fastest charging speeds. We don’t really have to think about where we’ll get gasoline; there’s pretty much always a station, often several, within the next few miles. Usually if we’re waiting to stop for fuel it’s because we’re looking for the best price, looking for a place that might have decent toilets, and/or might have an appealing food option along with the gasoline. That’s all manageable in electric but might need some advanced planning, and many American drivers aren’t used to doing that kind of route planning in advance anymore.
How many cars in Europe can drive 1,000 km without stopping anyways? The only ones I can think of offhand are large American pickup trucks intended for towing large trailers long distances. I wouldn’t expect to see them in Europe.
Any diesel can drive more than 1000 km with a full deposit. But laws forbid in some countries to drive more than 2 hours or 300 km without stopping.
I remember similar guidelines being taught when I was in driver’s ed in the US, but I don’t know if there were strict laws around it. If there are laws I would guess it is a state-by-state thing.
Some countries safety inspect vehicles annually.
In Spain you have 4 or 5 years before the first safety inspection. And the then, if it’s a van or bigger it’s each 6 months and if it’s a car, 1 year.
I only recently learned that in the US not every state has annual inspection requirements. In fact it’s a minority of states, only 14, and it looks like the inspection requirements have been reduced in recent years, such as some states exempting new vehicles for a certain amount of time or only requiring inspections for commercial vehicles. Both states I’ve lived in had annual inspections and I just assumed it was a thing everywhere.
My father in-law uses that added argument all the time. Who the hell needs to drive for 10 hours straight without taking a 30 minute break.
It’s the same mentality as V8 pickup buyers. But what if I need to tow my yacht one day? My truck was pretty damned convenient that day in 2017 when I had to move my brother-in-law’s sofa!
The only somewhat valid use case for “driving 1.000km without a stop” would be several people in the car taking turns on the driver’s seat. While you’d technically need to stop to switch drivers this in itself is way quicker than even a quick charge on paper.
BUT: considering traffic jams, speed limits and such - a 1.000km trip would take around 10+ hours anyway. You’re not going to tell me that you do not even stop to pee or stretch a bit for 10+ hours, do you?
While growing up my family once a year would take a 20 hour car trip to visit extended family for a couple weeks then 20 hours back. Parents would do five hour shifts and get the whole thing done in one go. Shift changes meant refuel, bathroom, that’s it. Other than that there was no stopping unless it was a “the next bump in the road I will 100% shit myself” kind of an emergency
Now personally I’d argue maybe we shouldn’t have been taking road trips in that manner because it’s like putting your body through a meat grinder. But if trips like that are someone’s goal I doubt there are many charging stations in the middle of absolutely nowhere that can fully charge an EV in the time it takes to pee. I’m hoping though maybe a shift to EVs will change the way people approach long road trips to actually force them to take breaks
It takes just one small change …. My family did similar, but those stops were planned for mealtimes. We either did fast food or brought a camping stove, but always ate outside the car. Kids were encouraged to “run down to the end of that path with the dog”. Anyhow, the presence of even a fast food meal meant that there would have been plenty of time to charge.
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gas stations don’t work in a blackout,
…do US statioms not have their own generators?
Nope. Even some US hospitals don’t have backup generators.
How are you going to fill those generators if the pump has no power?
Checkmate atheists
No idea about the US, but not in Europe. It was a major problem with the last blackout in Spain and Portugal.
I am asking because I worked in gas station in Poland and we had backup generator. xD
have a 10% battery remaining and then you recieve an emergency call and have to leave immediately
I actually have been in similar scenario, but one hour charging at home will get me to any such place (or I could have, you know, hit up a supercharger on my way)
The complaint may be that it’s an emergency but how often can you not even wait an hour? Especially since it’s half gone by the time I unload the car, use the rest room, etc
3.What if all the public plugs are occupied when you want to charge and you find yourself without battery to go to "ork tomorrow?
It sounds crazy, but I’d sit and wait the five minutes, much like I’ve done for pumps on occasion.
Another point to add for 9, all the EV parts can be recycled. The metal body is recycled in to new cars and battery components are also recycled in to new batteries.
Relevant technology connections video
My reason for not buying an EV: it’s still a fucking car. Bit less shit, but still shit.
That should be Number 1 Reason to not buy an EV!
Agreed! EVs are certainly superior to ICE cars, but they’re a band aid instead of a solution.
Bring back public transit!
Well yeah if you can avoid it you shouldn’t buy a car, but if you have to buy a car you should buy electric
I mean, technically, an eBike is an Electric Vehicle, and not a fucking car. Otherwise, hard agree.
Fuck cars alright, but as long as I’m dependant on a car, my no.1 reason to get an EV is that I hate the oil industry even more. Fuck their oil and money and pollution and fuck their wars and politics.
With point 2 you can now use a real life case. Last year the Iberian peninsula had a blackout that lasted more than a day. The combustion engine cars could not pump petrol because guess what: pumps need electricity.
If it helps, my EV technically has a manual transmission. 100% of gear shifts are manual (it only has a single reduction gear).
- Blackout
Eh? What if there’s a gas supply issue? Can’t fuel up. I’ve experienced this after a natural disaster disrupted gas deliveries. Lines for blocks. Days to wait.
You can’t refuel a gas car without electricity anyway, the pumps are electric.
Not to mention what if someone does something silly like start a war and push the price of oil up. Solar does not increase in price after it’s made.
Solar does not increase in price after it’s made
YET. Elon’s working on it.
Doesn’t mean they can’t raise it :>
Here’s a financial argument. The initial purchase price is too high for me, and the depreciation of electric vehicles is also very high. Overall cost of ownership per distance driven is lower if I drive a small gasoline-powered car.
I really don’t want it to be that way, but that’s the reality I have to deal with. Cheaper EVs are coming, but they still aren’t in my price range.
Update: Yes they are. Needed to update my data. Used EVs aren’t expensive trash any more. Some of them are actually quite reasonable.
Cheaper EVs are coming, but they still aren’t in my price range.
slightly used EVs are cheap as chips in NA. I don’t get people who whine about car prices then only buy new cars.
Did some quick market research and the numbers are in.
If your only drive in good weather in a city, you can get an EV for about 5 k€. If your country has snow and ice enabled, you’ll need to spend about 12 k€, but that’s still tolerable.
It’s not that expensive after all. Used to be pretty absurd a few years ago. Next, I’ll just need to figure out how to charge an EV. I’ll probably need to move to a newer building first.
Must be a Europe thing. I ran the numbers in America and avoiding gas cost (vs electric cost per mile) means the car paid for itself after 30k miles. And that’s ignoring that it needs no maintenance.
I thought European gas was expensive. Is the electricity over there also really pricey?
car paid for itself after 30k miles.
I bought a used hybrid in 2020 when gas was cheap. It’s already 100% paid for itself.
People are morons and don’t do the 5 year math on what a vehicle costs to run.
It depends where you live. We have cheap gas and I live in an area with one of the more expensive prices for electricity (and there are worse), but “filling up” at home is much cheaper than “filling up” my ice car.
However
- yes, we only have expensive EVs here. You can make up an extra $5k of purchase price with money saved on operations, but $10k or more is much harder
- trip chargers are already in a race for exploitation, profit seeking. Except for Tesla, prices are high, maintenance is low, and they compete for trapping customers more than attracting them
- since EVs became political we are currently off balance between supply and demand, so used cars are over supplied and lost much value. The quickly changing technology just makes it worse
so used cars are over supplied and lost much value
Perfect time to buy one then
This is Lemmy, no one can buy a used car. not possible.
Yes, I’ve argued that too. While there is the factor of fast changing technology, I think used EVs are a great buy right now.
I’m not in the market for an additional car although I’ve actually been tempted anyway …. I have two college kids sharing my old Subaru and it would prevent a lot of fights if I had another old vehicle for them
Then again my older kid just applied for a summer job with like 90 miles each way commute so may not be appropriate for limited or unknown range
Depreciation is a massive slice of the pie in all cars, but EVs are hit even harder. Buying a used EV is probably my best bet in about 5-10 years from now.
Specific cost of ownership (as in €/m) is what actually matters in the end, but most people ignore it. Usually people just compare gasoline and electricity prices and draw their conclusions based on that. That sort of analysis is not going to give you a very reliable picture.
Regardless, if I had the money to drive a BMW, buying an EV would be a simple decision. Who cares about the purchase price, ongoing expenses or depreciation when you have that much money. Since I’m not in that market segment, EVs aren’t really a viable option for me just yet.
Depreciation is a massive slice of the pie in all cars, but EVs are hit even harder.
I think that’s a quirk of Tesla trying to preserve market share by aggressively cutting prices of their new models over the past 5 years, which naturally puts pressure on all used models on the road. I don’t think that can last.
If EV manufacturers are racing to compete on price, then the new EVs will get cheaper faster to where EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles new. And if the EV manufacturers stop cutting prices, then that will alleviate that depreciation pressure.
I guess an update is in order. I was thinking of a calculation that is already several years old. I can’t even find it any more, but it had three options: small gasoline powered ICE car, hybrid and a fully electric one. Can’t remember if the latter one was Tesla, Toyota, BMW or something. Anyway, at that time, TCO of a small gasoline powered car was a bit lower that that of a hybrid or a fully electric one.
The final tipping point will be when the demand for EVs exceeds the demand for other car types. When that happens, depreciation of gasoline cars will increase dramatically, giving EVs a lower TCO. At the moment, charging infrastructure seems to be the bottle neck for a many people, so that’s why we haven’t gone past the tipping point yet. The real bottle neck here is actually the electrical grid, and upgrading that will take many years, if not decades. We could install more charging stations, but that would break the whole grid, so that’s why we have to limit their number in specific parts of the grid.
The price of a new EV is obviously going to decrease in the future, as every step along the chain ramps up production. Alternative battery chemistries play a role as well, now that LFP cars have finally entered the market. I’m also looking forward to seeing how Na-ion batteries affect the prices, but that’s still going to take a many years. I expect that in about 5-10 years the prices of cheap EVs will be a lot lower than they are today.
The economics are basically always shifting. Real world depreciation and maintenance don’t always follow the model projections, and neither do actual fuel/energy price projections. Electricity service has skyrocketed in a lot of places in recent years, while gasoline prices have remained pretty low, which obviously affects the accuracy of the calculations and modeling that were done 5 years ago. Not to mention, both gasoline and electric energy pricing vary heavily between place.
And, of course, the ever changing regulatory landscape might affect pricing and resale value, as well.
Plus the thing with cars is that most people aren’t buying the absolute bare minimum they can afford. People are willing to spend more on things: passenger and cargo space, performance, aesthetics, features/comfort, exterior dimensions that fit their own needs (for example, people who live in a city and want a car that can fit in tiny spaces), etc. For someone who is looking at total cost of ownership of something like mid tier or even luxury model, they should be comparing specific models they’d consider.
Ultimately, people need to do the calculation for their own specific situations. Someone in the market for a minivan in Detroit is gonna have different considerations than the person looking for a pickup truck in Dallas or a luxury sedan in Los Angeles or an economy car in Honolulu.
And as things shift, we’ll likely see more people make the decisions that are right for themselves in that particular moment. Including people who want to pay more for something not directly financially beneficial to themselves, whether it’s the driver who wants a manual transmission and the sounds of a revving internal combustion engine, or the person who would rather spend a little bit of extra money to do something more for climate change. Or the person who wants to boycott Elon Musk and will spend a bit more getting another non-Tesla EV.
At this point, my next car is almost certainly an EV, but I’m not going to prematurely sell my current car to make it happen.
Recently I realised that my EV data needed an update. Previously I thought that everything even remotely affordable was automatically Nissan Leaf level of useless. Well, the cheapest ones still are, but within the affordable range there are some cars that aren’t trash. I was surprised to find something I could realistically consider buying.
As long as I can figure out a way to charge it, my next car will be electric. Currently, I can’t charge at home, so there’s a bit of a problem…
TCO is even better for electric. Near zero maintenance. The depreciation is real, but only if you plan to sell it at it’s half life. If you plan to hold it a long time, depreciation evens out.
My EV is ten years old and cost $30k. It’s paid for itself twice over in just gas. More if I factor in the zero maintenance (not totally zero. I changed the tires a few times and had to replace a trunk component). The resale on it is about $8k lower than an equivalent ICE. But for me, the EV was a good deal.
I’d definitely recommend getting a used one though. I bought mine new, and that makes the numbers worse.
The depreciation is real
It’s not though, or it is currently. It wasn’t too many years ago that teslas kept their value more than any other car. I’d argue this is a temporary market condition that is only valid for decisions now but is not predictably valid
I lean the other way. I think Tesla valuation was artificially hyped and manipulated. The car’s valuation was luxury priced and tied to Elons personality. And that tanked. So I personally don’t think that was normal or ever coming back.
I think the current conditions are also abnormal, with EV becoming political and a horse running amok in the white house.
The normal depreciation is probably in the middle. But when are things ever normal anymore?
Yeah normal seems to have taken a vacation
In either case it’s all tied to supply and demand. When teslas kept their value it was because huge growth they couldn’t keep up with. Now their value used is horrible but a big part of that is demand dropped, so they can make too many.
And yes it is not a good thing that in both cases too much was driven by a personality.
Personally I’m annoyed because teslas still are the most compelling EV available to me, but they always had the shadow of over-hype and now they’re toxic
The way I see it, rich people can buy new cars. Everyone else who needs one should consider buying a used one instead. After a few years, depreciation isn’t quite so rapid any more, which makes TCO less of a burden.
Maintenance expenses do increase as the car ages, but as long as it isn’t like 25 years old, it’s not completely absurd. Currently, I’m looking to buy something that is about 5 years old, and then sell it when it begins to require frequent maintenance. That way, I should be able to avoid the two expensive extremes.
However, there’s another nasty twist. Cold environment will murder the NMC cells in no time. Not too long ago, I had to leave my car in a cold parking lot for a long time, and when I got back it was about -30 °C. Fortunately, I don’t need to abuse the engine this way any more than maybe twice every year. Oh, boy did it sound unhappy with that cold start, but it managed it anyway. If I had an EV, I would probably need to leave it at home, and take a bus for horribly timed trips like that.
Let’s say, about 6 times a year, I’ll have badly timed trips, with temperatures hovering around +5…-15 °C: That isn’t a complete disaster for EVs, but it’s still very bad for the cells. Some cars have a built-in heating system for the battery, so I guess that feature would see frequent use. When I’m eventually buying a use EV, having a battery heating system is going to be a completely non-negotiable feature.
temperatures hovering around +5…-15 °C
We’ve just come off a cold streak like this and I have to say it was no big deal.
Obviously I don’t know of there are long term effects on the battery but
- most/all EVs have active thermal management now so will maintain a healthy temperate while in use
- my decision point on technology maturity was when they started using heat pumps rather than resistive heat. That’s still too rare but makes a huge impact on cold weather range
The only good things about NMC cells is the energy density and the ability to pull a decent power during acceleration.
When it comes to temperatures, they are surprisingly picky. Too hot or cold, and they wear out quickly. If you push beyond that, you’ll lose range instantly. That’s why a heat pump is such a great thing to have.
Also, the state of charge matters to longevity. If you use the wrong percentages frequently, you’ll start losing capacity sooner or later. Even if you treat the battery perfectly, it’s still going to wear out like the tires do, but this thing costs as much as an engine.
I’m really looking forward to seeing all the other battery chemistries take their share of the market.
My argument: When I can get a decent used EV for $5k, I’ll do it. Until then, I’ll just get a decent used ICE car for $5K.
Haven’t seen anything decent at that price. You’ll be fine as long as you just drive in a city and keep the temperature of your car reasonable. If not, you’ll need to spend at least twice as much to get something decent.
The prices coming down though. We’re actually pretty close tolerable prices right now.
I always thought this was one of the reasons for an EV incentive. Encourage more people like me to buy the expensive ones sooner to develop the market, guaranteed demand for manufacturers, but that also gets us faster to the point of cheap used EVs
2: I wonder what those people think a gas pump runs on?
If there is no electricity, then those won’t pump either.
My reason: the hybrid I have is still working fine and a new car and a new car won’t be in my budget for the next 10 years or so. Also iirc about 33% of the energy a typical car will ever use is spend on its production, so it’s better for the environment to use a car until it breaks down.
that’s completely fine. If your car works, you shouldn’t throw it away, that is wasteful.
Depends on the car. Waste of resources sure, but it can reduce emissions depending on the car
Unless their car is scrapped, this only results in another car being on the road.
New drivers will be new drivers regardless. It will most likely just end up as a stored car or a replaced car of another car
a replaced car of another car
Unless the ‘another’ car being replaced isn’t irreparably broken and just doesn’t suffice our MOT requirements, it’s probably ending in a 3rd world country and will remain in use there (probably instead a cheap light EV).
- I don’t want an automatic car! I love changing my gear!
This is me. I have a hybrid car and I miss the stick every time I drive it.
The problem is those days are gone, even without EVs. Between modern automatics more efficient and longer lasting, and cheap reliable CVTs (also more efficient), manual transmissions have no future. I also prefer driving a stick, and frequently complained about limited availability in the US, but technology has passed it by
That doesn’t affect how nice it is to drive though, not that I personally would want to touch a clutch pedal.
cheap, reliable CVT
I may be out of date but Nissan’s CVTs self destruct very effectively and Subaru’s don’t handle the torque of the H6 so well. They’re still unpleasant to drive. Give me an EV every day.
My experience across three 2014+ Subarus with CVT has been flawless. Not the H6 though, all flat 4
I’ve been there, I did manual -> hybrid -> electric.
I did miss the stick when I was driving an hybrid. In the hybrid it felt like was I had to give away some of the control I had on the car by not being able to change gear.
With the EV on the other hand it’s totally different, the car is way more responsive, there is power the moment I press the pedal and the concept of gear disappear.
I don’t miss driving with a stick when driving an EV
It’s like in a videogame. Power from the start.
For a lot of people it’s number 7 and I mean, that’s sad
1 is real though, and it can be a pain
There’s also the case where some areas are isolated and there’s no charger nearby and that can be a pain, and yea, that’s not a good spot to be in
Finally, if you can’t charge at home, you’re not really going to save on electricity price compared to fuel, so that’s not the best purchase, and it might be a pain to charge frequently outside if you have an cheap car that charges slowly
In the worst case scenario (very high KWh price), charging is almost the same price for the same distance. In the best case (at home) is 10x cheaper.
This might actually be true, I think I misremember my calculations but I know I compared it some time ago, and realized it was way cheaper at home, and comparing the prices I pay outside and those, it might very well be the case
- What if there’s a blackout in the whole city and you can’t charge your car?
They couldn’t refuel their ice car either or how do they think the fuel is made to flow “uphill” from the tank in the ground into their car.
I wonder how many of those would not apply to hybrid cars.
Also, for 8: Making car go by burning fuel in a big optimised plant is likely more efficient than doing it in an engine that has to fit inside the car.
The major complaint I hear is that it takes forever to charge. It’s fine for commuting if you charge at home/work, but sounds a bit rough for road trips and the likes.
I often see people at the gas station’s plug just watching videos or reading a book outside, doesn’t make me want one. Hybrid though I could see myself buying.
It’s a different way of travelling. With an ICE I would pull into an ugly service station, buy fuel and shit food/drink, go to a disgusting toilet and then get straight back on the road. No smelling of flowers.
Now it’s the interesting, funky cafe’s/restaurants along the route that are adding fast chargers. I pull in there, have a nice coffee or meal, and then continue on my way.
It’s a much more pleasant way to do a trip. More chilled. More ‘touching the grass’.
Depending on the car and budget: It totally is.
At work we have a VW eUP.
Charges at a snail pace (¼ = 60-90ish km at 2-3h).Yes it’s fine most of the time but if we swap it between on-site visits one really has to wait or risk not coming home (and don’t get me started on the landmine of charging infrastructure).
German news about the whole infrastructure: https://youtu.be/GQ2hbLzfQ54
TLDW: Close a contract with one provider (e.g. your supplier at home), pay tripple the amount because that charging station is from another provider. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Most cars come with fast charge in DC. You can add a good amount of range in like 15-20 minutes. The ones not coming with fast charge are mostly city cars that don’t need it anyways.
I feel like some of those points are slightly more valid in rural areas (especially in the US, where a power pole being knocked over means that the power is out for hours) where the people making those points are more likely to have grown up. Then again if you are not in a rural point of the united states you are less likely to need a car.
If I lived in rural US where the power is not guaranteed I would install PV and use my car as a power backup.
That sounds rather expensive (if PV is photovoltaic). And I was not aware that cars were built to supply power like that.
Yeah, I meant photovoltaic with PV. At least in Europe it’s gotten really cheap.
There are mutiple ways to use the energy that is stored in electric cards. There’s “Vehicle to Load” (V2L) for plugging appliances directly into the car, “Vehicle to Home” (V2H) for connecting your home to the car and “Vehicle to grid” for connecting the car to the power grid and selling the stored energy.
“Vehicle to load” is also useful when going camping or when you need power when there’s no outlet near you. You just need a car that supports it and a small adapter.
From what I’ve been told by people I know irl (in Germany) that have a house it would have been over thousand euros just for the power connection.
To me who has neither a house nor a car, a solar panel sounds like a lot of money. Getting them used probably isn’t good either?
The power connectors for cars sound cool.
In America it’s gotten cheap too. You can buy panels at harbor freight these days
To point 5: there are companies that sell electric crate motors, pre-configured to couple with your transmission’s bell housing. Hell, some of these companies sell the entire conversation kit, or will do the entire conversation for you. These conversions give you a completely offline electric car that keeps an older car from going to a junkyard, and reduces the materials needed for an updated car on the road. Also, if someone is concerned that a new electric car has the same carbon footprint as an internal combustion vehicle, recycled and reclaimed batteries are an incredible option.
If you’re going to do one of these conversions on a standard transmission car, you’ll probably want to pay some professionals anyway to tune it so that you don’t shred your clutch when you shift. I almost did this with my old '95 Explorer, but it had some suspension issues that I wasn’t willing to tackle at the same time. Plus, my neighbor told me that one of his friends had their car destroyed in a flood, but talked about how they always wanted a classic Explorer in exactly my color, so I gave it to her.
Costco: 4000 pack of kirkland brand AA batteries…
I’m hesitant to get an electric vehicle because I don’t currently have anywhere to charge near my condo. My condo parking spot isn’t near a building, so it would probably be a pain to charge from there. I’d be interested if my office had some charging stations.
Until then, I’m quite happy with my old Prius. It goes, stops, and steers as needed, no complaints. Catalytic converter has only been stolen once.
A friend of mine did it. Parked at his condo then went to a supercharger every weekend. It can be done. I’m not that dedicated but some people are.
Unfortunately charging at work may not be the answer if there are not enough. My office has 8 chargers, so I can charge for free. However there are more than 8 people who want to use them. In theory we can share so 16 cars get half a day each but it can be tough to get a turn.
Chargers, both high speed and destination, really need to scale a lot for this to become convenient and reliable. It’s unfortunate that this also has become political and attempts to improve this have been blocked
Being able to charge at home is a game changer, and I live on the east coast where superchargers are commonly available but sometimes it’s easy to get discouraged at this infrastructure being so delayed
In all seriousness, the transition of small devices away from AA/AAA batteries is very annoying. I always had batteries charged, now I have to constantly plug some junk in and wait?
I invested in some rechargeable NiMH AAs, and AAAs. Now sometimes I think i prefer some things with old school batteries just because of how convenient it is. Granted, that system wouldn’t work well for my headphones, or my phone. But seems just fine for the odd remote control, kitchen gadget or portable lamp.
Rechargeable AAs and AAAs have finally been perfected, I am kind of annoyed by things that have only internal batteries now, I don’t want them going to the landfill just because the cheap device died. Let me keep running the batteries for a decade in other shit.
For decades we had battery packs that could be replaced. we have lifepo4 that’s super safe to handle, i don’t know why we don’t have replacable battery packs anymore :/
The internal batteries often aren’t that hard to replace. If you can get the device open the batteries are standard sizes you can order and often just plug in. Except phones, phone manufacturing relies on pure evil
I have two sets of headphones, one older set that takes a AA and a new one that charges. I use the older ones constantly since when they die I just grab a NiMH AA out of the charger and pop it in, back in 10 seconds. New one…not so much
The headsets I’ve seen which take AA batteries were heavy af.
What, no. Audio-technica from about 2016, they are normal weight.
Well guess I just haven’t seen 'em then.
I’m not saying light ones don’t exist. I just haven’t seen any.
I bought a set for work that comes with 2 rechargeable lithium packs and an external charger so you can just swap as needed.
Sure but…we had that already
For the blackout concerns: if you have solar panels, irrelevant, actually you’d be in a better place than with an ICE car. Also, if you have a garage, a fairly powerful generator cost peanuts compared to the price of a car, and some can run on gas cilinders and gasoline. Way safer to store gas cilinders than gas.
Batery longevity: I read an article that reviewed longevity, now that there is enough data, and most cars had better longevity, by far, than expected, except for some early models, like 1st Gen leafs. These had lower longevity, attributed to lower capacity batteries that had to be recharged a lot more. Higher capacities, coupled with way better charging circuits and logic, make for way more durable batteries.
Public charging costs is a valid concern.
Long drives. Decades ago I drove with my ex and my in laws from Madrid to Brussels in one go. 2 of us taking turns.I swore to never do more than 800 Km in one go. We did it in a largish car, pretty comfortable. Yeah, no.
Recyclability: most of ICE cars are recyclable, even much of the plastics, which are used to make floor mats, soundproofing, etc. Most of the car is metal, copper and aluminum being especially valuable.
Joy of driving. Once you experience the insane torque and acceleration of EVs, even the smaller ones, you won’t want a stick, unless you have a true sportscar.
I drive a 26 year old car, which I will keep until it has a catastrophic failure, love the thing. Not a major failure ever. Next will be an EV.
People conveniently forget that gas pumps are powered by electricity also. A person with solar panels and an ev is going to be in a much better situation in a large scale power outage than someone with a gas car.
I recall an ice storm where half the state was dark, and sure enough so were the gas stations. It was a fun conversation with my supervisor.
The majority of people who happen to be in cities aren’t helped by your setup.
Ok, so they are fucked either way. The gas pumps will still not work in cities either.
Most places with solar panels hooked up to the grid, you can’t use the power from them when the grid is down. Safety thing so you aren’t back feeding into the grid.
My next car is going to have physical fucking knobs and buttons.
I’m not buying another car with a tablet to control the media and the climate, regardless of power source. If I have to buy a 10 year old rust bucket I will. I’m not going back to the tablet until there’s literally no other option available.
I have a Kia e-niro which is pretty decent. It has a touchscreen for navigation, but the climate controls, radio etc are all physical
Recyclability: most of ICE cars are recyclable,
There’s no reason to expect this will be any different with EVs. There are already companies claiming better recycling rates, but they can’t scale up yet because there are not enough retired EVs
I have 25 and 23 year old cars. Pretty much the only thing that would cause me to get rid of them would be a crash or the frame rusting out.
I’ve replaced motors and rebuilt trans on each of them respectively. And I’ll continue doing that. Parts are still easily accessible and when they aren’t anymore, pretty much everything is metal and a machine shop can fab something up.
…yeah, five hundred miles is a pretty good run, especially with slow speed limits…
…stateside i’m usually spent after twelve hours solo, which will carry you about a thousand miles, although my wife will power through 1250 miles driving in shifts (but that makes for an exhausting day)…
