It’s even better when they want “historical accuracy” in a fictional world that’s based on medieval times.
Look, I just want historical accuracy in my movie about sea monsters and cyclopses!
As we all know, despite part of the story taking place in Africa, there were no black people in ancient Greece!
Yes. I agree with with Donny in this meme.
To the same effect, I’m bothered with how everyone in the new Odyssey movie looks way too pasty white for Mediterranean mariners. Was it really necessary to cast big names for the movie? Couldn’t they find anyone that fit those parts better?
Hells, I had a lengthy discussion with an enthusiast for that time period and he went livid when we started talking about the costume design…
Hollywood is becoming altogether tiresome.
To the same effect, I’m bothered with how everyone in the new Odyssey movie looks way too pasty white for Mediterranean mariners. Was it really necessary to cast big names for the movie? Couldn’t they find anyone that fit those parts better?
They want to make money. Stars bring in general audiences. No name actors don’t.
And plenty of Greek people are pasty white. I know several.
I hate how every old outfit.It looks brand new and spotless. That’s not even how we are today back in the day.People were far more tolerated, and there were more dirty old and worn outfits. I want to see outfits that look legit, worn, not brand new!
:The sound of a thousand dicks ripping when the single African character was found in Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 :
BlaCk pEopLe neVEr wEnt tO EurOPe iN The MiDdlE AgEs!
I’m surprised they even had one given how controversial the devs were the first time.
Generally agree with making fun of such people espescially in fantasy.
I fucking hated it in the witcher series though. I mean no disrespect to the actress that played Tris Merigold she did well - well, at least better that the one for Yennefer or some of the other sorceresses. But the plot is already diverse, it is based on historic folklore and incorporates racism and xenophobia. It makes just so little fucking sense. Though to be fair, little did make sense, the director really screwed the series and the fans of its source material over big time.
In Bridgerton, yes I weirdly enough enjoyed the first season, I did not give a fuck about the diversity nor felt it forced to me.
What happens when they cast a black actor to replace another ethnic group?
If ethnicity is a vital part of the character’s identity or role in the historical context - it’s obviously only appriopriate to maintain it.
Otherwise, eh, whatever
Right but as a person who is ethnic and not back, them playing my people is just as offensive as a white person. Especially since they’re al American or British black actors
Rings of power
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This is the worst when the film is legitimately bad, too.
Like, we all pretty much agree Gods of Egypt was a bad movie, but it’s still got defenders because they think we’re mad about the Black God and not the whole entire cast of White Guys.
Even worse is Captain Marvel. It’s just a terrible non-plot without any character growth and intrigue, it’s the female version of Green Lantern 2011, but unlike Green Lantern we can’t all agree it’s a bad movie for all the same reasons.
Movie studios go out of their way to amplify a few outspoken racists when people start trying to criticize movies on reasonable grounds. That’s why when all you can hear about a movie is that it’s “woke shit”, it’s because there’s nothing good about it.
I honestly think this was the strategy for The Little Mermaid. Casting Halle Bailey took all the attention off the fact that it was another soulless live-action remake of a Disney classic, and nobody wanted to criticize it because they were afraid of being lumped in with all the racist dipshits (not to mention all the free advertising they got from said racist dipshits’ angry xitter posts).
The musical sections were so off putting to me, idk how that movie got 90% on Rotten Tomatoes if not for vote manipulation.
I haven’t seen it myself, but the only song I’ve heard was an annoying song sung by an annoying character, and the whole song was about how annoying she is. I could only wonder, who is this song for? The whole point of it seemed to be as off-putting as possible.
Captain Marvel was genuinely just a bland and uninteresting character. Similar story with Rey.
Admittedly a lot of comic book characters are drawn as stoics which is hard to adapt to movie and TV without making them seem unemotional, like with Spawn, except in the Spawn movie we had Klown which more than made up for the lack of facial expression from Spawn.
A similar issue with Hellboy, except we had really good effects and the glorious voice of Ron Perlman to make it work.
I loved Captain Marvel! Maybe you need to stop expecting Shakespeare from capeshit?
It’s cool that you enjoyed it! But there’s no need to pretend that this is a binary choice. Guardians of the Galaxy is also capeshit with a stoic woman, yet IMO Gamorra is a much more interesting character than Captain Marvel.
I also liked many parts of the movie, but some other parts were big enough misses that I’m not really interested in rewatching.
IMO Gamorra is a much more interesting character than Captain Marvel.
Eh. Gamora is the love interest of a protagonist of the movie. (Arguably the main one in GoG, obviously but still.)
Captain Marvel is the protagonist of her movie.
Idk, I’ve seen GoG movies twice at least but I haven’t rewatched Captain Marvel… maybe it’s a good time. Thanks.
But yeah for the female characters from GoG i just find Nebula a far more interesting character. We actually see her develop and see her past and she’s not just a romantic interest (even when there’s hint of a bit of that perhaps), unlike Gamora. Gamora didn’t really have an arc imo, just disliking his “daddy” and then dying. And then coming back and being a bitch more or less. Dk, seems uninteresting to me.
That might be why Gamora works and Captain Marvel doesn’t, because of human(?) connections.
She starts out the film as a lone vigilante trying to keep the infinity stone out of Thanos’ hands, is willing to harm or even kill people to do so if needed, but realizes she needs help from the others to accomplish this goal. She threatens to kill Starlord for putting moves on her and is just generally uncooperative for most of her scenes but slowly starts to trust and appreciate them.
Captain Marvel is the opposite development: She’s got a bunch of space nazi friends who do bad things together and she has no idea because of her space-magic amnesia. She communicates with the earthlings but mostly at gunpoint or under similar threat, except for the singular living woman who knows her past, and then when she discovers her powers she just goes and finishes everything on her own with 0 struggle or hesitation. It’s the extremist teenage power fantasy: become a complete recluse and kill everyone who looks at you funny.
It’s the extremist teenage power fantasy: become a complete recluse and kill everyone who looks at you funny.
Lol. Sure, but if that’s the amount of contempt we’re putting to our analysis, Gamora is the ultimate kawai waifu that the hero is destined to be with, even getting his godlike Daddies (think like an Arnie as inlaw oh wait no who has that can’t be the same person leading this movie) acceptance for his boyfriend, who is overall very average, very mid all around, but still saves the universe.
They’re all complete fantasies and based on a lot of silly wishful stuff.
“Threatens to kill Starlord for putting the moves on him” lol, as if that was even remotely an actual threat instead of thinly veiled sexual innuendo. No way, the mid tier guy has to like, make the attractive lady want them through being a bad person, despite being very mid and not having the attention of the attractive kawai waifus, overcoming it through the power of personality. But also, he’s literally a god. Well, “A celestial”. Which never gets shown, except the once, which doesn’t reflect to his abilities or strengths in any way.
Yes, the ultimate standin for the average comic fan, I guess?
But Cpt Marvel actually develops as a character. Perhaps from bad to not-so-good, but they develop. And perhaps you don’t enjoy aspects of the movie which I might, I dk. We prolly like different things, and honestly, can’t remember that much of Cpt Marvel as a plot, so it couldn’t have been that good, but I do remember enjoying the character of Cpt Marvel more than Gamora at any point. Gamora might have been interesting in some comics or smth but at least in the movie she didn’t have development, just a romantics interest of the lead who then gets killed by Arn… Big Daddy.
lol, as if that was even remotely an actual threat instead of thinly veiled sexual innuendo
She turned his head and held a knife to his neck…
Exactly. Sexual innuendo.
Or who here or in the audiences actually thought the protagonist was going murdered in the middle of a movie like that?
No-one.
Thinly veiled sexual innuendo. Not perhaps from the characters own perspective, but we’re not her, we’re looking at the movies as structure. Did you by the way know the rule “any announced plans never happen”. And even the audience doesn’t know they know it, they do. Like whenever a hero goes over their plan or something. Any actual promises or plans that are announced and “will happen” never do. So “I will kill yourself if you don’t stop your horny (average looking) ass from from horning after me” actually becomes more like “I won’t kill you, despite you continuing exactly like before”
And even then GoG movies still have a better female character, Nebula.
Same. We had fun, and the music was great! Also young Samuel L. Jackson!
I feel like the people defending Captain Marvel should be more upset with how hamfisted its attempts at pandering are. Like playing “I’m just a girl” or having someone literally tell her to smile more followd by her saying “did you just ask me to smile more?”
Representation is important, but you have to put in some effort.
Honestly I am sad that telling people to smile more has become a cultural faux pas, I would like to be able to tell everyone to smile more if not for ourselves than for each other.
Fuck you. Don’t tell people to smile more; give them a reason to smile! Tell a joke! Be genuinely kind!
A good alternative is to find ways to make people smile instead :)
Smiles are earned, not gifted, fake smiles hold no value and make it harder to recognize genuine happiness.
It’s fine for people to experience neutral and negative emotions, pretending to be happy doesnt improve anything.
Maybe you should frown more instead.
Seeing other people happy makes us happy
Seeing other people sad makes us sad
It’s called empathy, but I can understand it’s a foreign concept to a lot of people on here.
I told you, if people smiles just cause they’re told to I won’t be happy seeing them smile cause it may be fake. If everyone fakes being happy whats the point? Fix the problem instead (if it’s possible, if not then bad luck, we can’t be happy everyday). And don’t lecture me on empathy, you’re the one who doesn’t acknowledge people might get rightfully upset when being told to ignore their feelings and fake happiness. It’s called oversimplifying things. They’re smiling? They’re happy! Bruh.
Lol okay mr human lie detector. Go back to solving crimes with your chimpanzee sidekick.
Do you see a flashy video and don’t care if it’s AI or not cause who needs reality anyways? If I want fake videos I’ll go watch a movie. If I want fake smiles I’ll go for some theatre.
Gotta take up the art of mime. The art of mime makes people smile. Some when I arrive, others when I leave.
You said Captain Marvel, I thought Wonder Woman. Same thing though. 😅
I do understand why many people react like that to criticism of something empowering though. If you’ve been oppressed, bullied and hurt for something forever you of course see it everywhere (because that’s where the source of pain usually is/was, fucking everywhere). I’m dealing with that shit myself, it takes serious energy not to immediately jump at people when they express anything that could be transphobic. After an awful day I might only realise later how I overinterpreted a situation.
Now of course there is a small but loud minority of performative “supporters” who completely misinterpret most criticism, verbally attack people on sight and are genuinely annoying for no good reason. That’s an absolute minority though, hard to distinguish from (bad-faith) trolls and just a menace to everyone. Unfortunately you generally can’t distinguish those on social media…
A lot of people love Wonder Woman 2017 but definitely not for her own character development. She just kind of wants to do whatever she wants, escapes the island and does it, and then they shoehorn in a twist villain at the end.
I think what makes it work is the refreshing grimdark take on the war and that the character who does the development and experiences a magical adventure is this sidekick pilot dude and gets to bear witness to the antics of a goddess.
I have similar feelings about the Aquaman Sequels.
Wonder Woman also manages to make great humor out of how she’s basically in the wrong place, wrong time. That contrast works and makes all the interactions and characters themselves around it more interesting than they would be in a different plot. The ending really is the greatest weakness of the movie; a clearly way easier and better ending would have been that there was no big bad guy, that it was just the humans being humans. Now it just fell flat instead of having some slightly deeper and way more interesting insight.
I’d say it’s what usually fails most action films in general though. Big bad evil, hero fight evil, evil beaten yayy but heavy cost. Even otherwise good action films like John Wick end up repeating the cliché. It’s very disappointing every time they do it and has ruined so many movies already. Do people really want to see the boring end fight that you know is coming and will always go the same way over and over again?
I absolutely care about historical accuracy! That’s why that show depicting Rome in all white is so fucking dumb. It was a Mediterranean Empire, for fuck’s sake! It had people from all around the Mediterranean, even in the upper echelons. For instance, there were emperors from the Balkan and modern central Turkey.
But anyway, what matters more to me than the ethnicity or appearance of the characters is the faithful representation of social and political structures or technological restrictions. Race can play a part in this, but it’s hardly the only part and rarely the most important. Wealth, while often correlated with race, is generally the more significant factor.
For example: Arrows piercing plate like so much paper understates the power advantage between those who could afford proper protection and those who had to make do with textile armor. I don’t care if the guy inside that cuirass is white, black, green with purple dots or actually not a guy: an arrow slowed by friction hitting a sloped steel sheet at an angle is gonna slide off. I’d rather see an Asian female knight stride into battle with confidence and terrify lightly armoured peasants than have a male knight shot through the chestplate.
What show?
I’m exaggerating a little for comedic effect, but the Senate is definitely not representative of a Mediterranean Empire.
(Don’t get me wrong, I’m not shitting on the show itself, just that casting decision)
Haha that’s a good point.
Ofc, they’re all white. Have you seen their marble busts? They’d choose black marble if they were black
Beat me to it.
From the Balkan? Really? Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
From the Balkan? Really?
Maximinus Thrax was named after his origin in Thracia, which would have included the European part of modern-day Turkey along with parts of Bulgaria and Eastern Greece. There were other Thraco-Roman emperors as well, I just picked one arbitrarily. My main point was “not white”.
Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
Go right ahead! I’m interested in the point you’re looking to make. And if your point is also “not white”, be sure to also address it to all the people whose Italy is filled with Brits that make milk look tan.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong
They’re not British-white is my point, but I probably should have said so explicitly. I assumed that a reader would be familiar with the phenomenon of shows about Rome being cast predominantly British, but in hindsight, that’s a bold assumption to make.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus
Wat
I mean, they’re both bordering the Black Sea, if that’s what you mean, but the Balkan is on the west side while the Caucasus is on the east. Unless you’re working off some other definition I don’t know of?
so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
So today’s US and UK actors not the same “white” as the Caucasians in antiquity? Even if we extended that to the Balkans, that just underlines my point. I’m not looking to argue about specific terms for specific ethnic backgrounds here.
I’m talking about the fact that, by and large, historical Romans don’t actually fit the way TV shows the last few decades tended to portray them. I picked two decidedly non-“modern British white” emperors as examples of prominent non-mBw Romans.
If you want more examples, Septimus Severus was of Punic (originally Phoenician / Semitic people who settled in northern Africa) descent, born in modern-day Libya, which I’m fairly confident we all agree is not Caucasian, nor white, and most certainly not mBw. He is visible in this family portrait (although one of his sons was condemned by the other, which is probably why that face has been erased):
Does that look white to you, by whatever definition you would like to apply?
Ok. So
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
And that’s not a joke.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
BTW this is a just a problem in the USA. The only time in my life a had to catalogue myself in a race tag was when I traveled to the USA. And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
Like I said, this is a thing only in the USA. Nobody cares about the “races” they invented.
I’m not from the US, maybe that’s why I don’t deal much with the names people give to “races”. The only case particularly relevant to me is that of a certain megalomaniac getting people riled up about the “Aryan” race which I’m sure we both agree was also quite nonsensical.
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
I mean, if we’re going by geography, Balkan would be closer to the Caucasus than either of them to England. I couldn’t tell you how any given ethnic people moved, spread and intermingled over the centuries, but as you say, it’s not really relevant outside the US.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
That’s partially why I avoid the use of that term. The rest of it is that it just isn’t a useful term since it…
And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
…is so broadly used that it no longer refers to any distinct ethnic, geographic or cultural group. It’s just a shorthand for the stereotypes and biases people attach to it.
Of course, the whole point of sorting people into races is racism, but we knew that already.
Granted, I was being imprecise, but my point was that many UK and US shows and movies scarcely cast actors from the Mediterranean or the various other former Roman provinces that would also have wealthy elites who would have to be involved in public matters as any other Roman citizen was expected to. Because that’s what most influences whether you’ll make it high in the Cursus Honorum: having the money to make friends.
Instead, they primarily cast “makes milk look tan” Brits, particularly for their elites. When the Senate of a Mediterranean Empire looks like they only ever hold public speeches or leave the house for any other social function when it’s overcast, that does irritate me.
Poor Elon Musk. The casting choices on The Odyssey have deeply affected his big, sensitive heart. But you wouldn’t know it, due to his mature stoicism.
I mean, you expect he’d tweet up a storm, post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post over several days, making him look like some sort of whiny, tantrum-throwing white supremacist.
But, no. The control that selfless Titan of Industry has over his emotions is inspiring!
I do not, and have never, twittered. Nonetheless I have to assume you are being facetious, and that I am missing out on a veritable stream of rageposting nonsense from the 21st-century Midas of Feces.
Isn’t it twatted? (Or if not, then shouldn’t it be?)
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I just had a great idea. let’s make a mockumentary about Trump and all his supporters, but cast inversely instead.
let’s get a nice young black man that looks like Obama to play Trump, but we actually name the character something weird like President Donald Doofy but he still acts like Trump.
it’ll be the worlds best troll. all the advertisements will be “doofy” rambling on about how the movie is getting rave reviews and “the best” ratings better than that shitty “melabia or whatever” movie.
The world’s best troll will be when this project gains a critical mass of publicity and Obama himself agrees to play the role of trump. Then several voice coaches would volunteer to help Obama perfectly reproduce Trump’s slurred speeches and memorable lines.
Or maybe it goes in the opposite direction, where he emphasizes his own trademark mannerisms in order to erase any similarity to Trump. He’d be wearing a tan suit, a blue tie, and be all "Look. Uhhh… Nothing bad… can happen! It uh, it can only good happen. But with Tylenol, don’t take it. Don’t take it!”
You’d have to have a palestinian epstein in that case and that’d be kinda weird.
President Tuba
this like every conservative, they call these things woke, they dont really care about the historical accuracy of it.
There’s always been race swapping in films. Just look at John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
Just look at John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
Or Ricardo Montalban playing Khan Noonien Singh!
It’s totally fine when white people do it. /s
Am I allowed to be annoyed at race swapping if I’m consistent? If you’re going to make a movie about characters with a canon appearance, the actor should conform to that appearance.
If you’re making Romeo and Juliet, the actors should at least look Italian. Now, if you’re doing a full reimagining, that’s a different thing. If you’re making West Side Story, half your cast should look Puerto Rican. But if you’re just doing a straight telling of a story, especially a historical one, casting choices shouldn’t distract from the story.
Romeo and Juliet is a great example of why I think it’s fucking asinine to even care.
Specifically, if the actors need to look Italian, you will need to argue that an accurate telling of that story has never been accomplished.
Was it an accurate telling when Shakespeare himself was involved in the production? When the actors were exclusively pasty English men? Or was it only accurate after Shakespeare himself was dead and a translated production was performed in Italy by Italian men and women? Do the actors need to actually be 16 and 13? Or can maybe young looking adults be used? Should we go back to the original Italian spelling of their names or is anglicisation in this case ok?
Why does your suspension of disbelief only stop when the skin color changes? What even does an Italian look like? Rome was a commercial hub for centuries that saw settlers from all over the known world. Are they not Italian?
What’s even better is there’s a great opportunity to use subtext to tell a much deeper story with Romeo and Juliet specifically by making one of the families black, because the specific beef between the Montague’s and Capulet’s isn’t really discussed.
Sure, there are times when it’s important to get those details right. Specifically, when ethnicity is a central component to the story being told. Those stories aren’t very common, and almost certainly will be the ones you think of as exceptions to everything else I just said. Otherwise, bro, it’s a movie, everything about it is a lie.
What’s even better is there’s a great opportunity to use subtext to tell a much deeper story with Romeo and Juliet specifically by making one of the families black, because the specific beef between the Montague’s and Capulet’s isn’t really discussed.
Yeah… you mean like West Side Story? That’s a reimagining, I specifically said that was fine.
No. Not like that.
I like how they only addressed what they perceived as your weakest point, very compelling.
It was the only point that seemed worth engaging with, since it raised the one good exception, and I’d already addressed it.
Was it an accurate telling when Shakespeare himself was involved in the production? When the actors were exclusively pasty English men?
16th century English theater and modern film are wildly different things. When you have basically unlimited access to actors of every physical description, there’s no excuse not to be accurate.
Do the actors need to actually be 16 and 13? Or can maybe young looking adults be used?
I specifically noted looking the part.
Should we go back to the original Italian spelling of their names or is anglicisation in this case ok?
What? It was written by an English playwright, and what difference is there anyway? It’s Italian, not Chinese. It’s the same alphabet.
Why does your suspension of disbelief only stop when the skin color changes?
I never said that it did. I’d be equally annoyed by other obvious anachronisms and inaccuracies
What even does an Italian look like? Rome was a commercial hub for centuries that saw settlers from all over the known world. Are they not Italian?
Like people with deep northern Mediterranean ancestry. Sure, there were plenty of immigrants of varied ethnicities, but they probably didn’t have names like Montague and Capulet.
Otherwise, bro, it’s a movie, everything about it is a lie.
But when it’s a movie with a specific setting and characters, deviations from the characteristics of that setting are immersion breaking. When I’m watching a movie, I don’t want to be reminded that it’s just a movie. I want to buy into it. I can’t do that when Genghis Khan is being played by John Wayne.
Again, if you want to reimagine a basic story in a new setting, sure that’s fine. Change the characters to your heart’s content, so long as they’re consistent with the new setting.
Yeah, but then you’ve got the weirdos who don’t feel that way unless it’s a white character being cast differently and the other weirdos who think it’s only acceptable when it’s a white character being cast differently.
I believe there was also a shitstorm when the chick in Ghost in the shell was chosen to be white (instead of Asian), and similar with Avatar the Last Airbender?
hey now! John Wayne always gave the colored folks roles they deserved! /s
Maybe we should ask Mongolians how they felt about John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
Some people don’t want to let anyone else tell a story.
And sometimes its just racism.
I always tell people like this that jesus was a short brown skinned jewish man and I take offense to white people portraying him in video and people portraying him as white in paintings too and I swear they would shoot me on the spot if we u.s. losers but we are canadian losers.
I read that as
“Jesus was a short, brown, skinned, jewish man”
I was right flummoxed for a moment there.
we are canadian
lhosers.
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