base your whole project on a corporate Nazi shill company like IBM and find out.
watchu talkin bout mate
Red hat is owned by IBM which is a Nazi enabling mega corpo
I mean companies by definition surrender to power for the sake of profit. I don’t see how that makes them any better or worse than any other company that functions under our current system
Well then you should consider some reading on the issue.
Yeah, no I’m aware of their history. More to the point it has little to nothing to do with Bazzite being negatively effected by Fedora dropping support for 32 bit. It’s not like 32 bit Fedora systems are keeping American immigrants from being deported and by deprecating them IBM is returning to their Nazi roots
it’s about using a platform that’s owned by a corporate entity that will do anything for more profit.
IBM is known for doing whatever they want, whenever they want.
I have zero sympathy for a project that leverages tooling from a vendor with the kind of reputation IBM has.
that said, someone better suited for the project will fork it and it will carry on, just might lose some momentum.
Ugghhh, I just got it set up with arr stack on my media computer. Can someone more familiar with the trajectory of the project tell me the odds of this actually happening? Or is it more of a PR move to get people’s attention on the Fedora project?
Well, no. If it actually happens, Bazzite can’t exist. Valve only releases 32bit of Steam for the official client. If support for 32bit is removed from Fedora, then gamers won’t be able to use Steam on Fedora or its downstream distros.
Just migrate to cachy! It’s everything bazzite is but better!
I use Cachy and love Cachy, but it’s fundamentally very different from Bazzite. Bazzite is an immutable distribution. Cachy is a rolling release. Those are like polar opposites.
Wouldn’t the Steam Flatpak still work?
Steam in a flatpak sometimes runs into permission problems. That was supposedly fixed years ago, but every so often a game pops up that doesn’t work without getting hacky. Native just doesn’t have those issues.
And what if Valve starts releasing 64bit version?
According to that thread, when Ubuntu tried this, Valve refused to provide a 64bit version. But if they suddenly decided to, then I think the answer to your question would be obvious.
Obviously yes or obviously no?
So it’s actually the whole cause of the issue? If Valve shifts to 64bit then there would be no issue? Or is there a limitation that would then prevent 32bit games from working?
deleted by creator
I was this 🤏 close to a reflexive downvote
I think I can hear Bringus sobbing somewhere
I should’ve figured people on Lemmy would love his content lol
the return of HoloISO never booting up
Shit, now i gotta do the distribution shuffle again.
Too early, as the other comment said… However, if this happens, I’d hope that the SteamOS desktop image will be officially available which seems pretty similar to Bazzite, but based on Arch instead of Fedora.
where we goin
Over there!
It’s way too early to make that call. This is a proposal for collecting feedback. I am not sure if this has been proposed before, but I would guess you would make these proposals from time to time to gauge the feedback, and when you see support for keeping it fall to a low level you can finally make the jump. As one of the comments in the thread mentions, now might not be the right time but you can’t keep supporting it forever. Eventually you push 32 bit apps into emulators like what happened with 16 bit.
As reiterated by the OP, the proposal is just a proposal and was proposed with heaps of lead time probably because they expected it to be controversial.
As also mentioned, heaps of volunteer time is spent maintaining the packages where most are barely used (even for gaming).
However, it does not seem like there is a viable alternative. Many comments say the suggested alternative, WINE’s WoW64, does not work for all games.
I can see both sides here. Fedora maintainers says “this is so much work!” and (mostly) gamers saying “But older games will stop working!”.
The response from the Bazzite guy does seem overblown to me. I would think the first step is to work out the impact, as I haven’t seen anyone quantify what proportion of games are affected and if there are alternatives like emulation.
I’m wondering what the problem even is. I mean, can’t you just put all the stuff relevant to 32 bit gaming into a ‘retro-gaming’ package and be like “there, now if you want updates, better find maintainers”?
If you have an old game, chances are you won’t need many new features. Only problem could be other packages or the kernel becoming incompatible. I don’t know how relevant that is in this instance.
only problem could be other packages or the kernel becoming incompatible
Yea dependency management without updates is like 80% of the work that goes into package maintenance
Older games? What are you talking about? They say in that thread that Valve doesn’t release 64bit versions of Steam. That means any games through Steam using the official client would be unplayable.
The two solutions I’ve seen presented in the thread for the Steam problem are to run Steam in a flatpak or a distrobox. I’m not sure if using distrobox has the same issues as flatpak.
I want to say no, but I’m sure if I did somebody who has tried that would pipe up with a problem they found.
The flatpak should still work. Though I agree it’s a problem.
The flatpak has its own issues. Namely, that Steam was never meant to be run like that, so you run into bugs the native version doesn’t have.
WINE’s WoW64, does not work for all games.
Ok but is that because of fundamental limitations, or just because of bugs?
One’s easier to fix than the other.
If it works like real WoW64, then 16 bit applications won’t work ever but 32 bit applications that don’t work will be because of fixable bugs.
It seems to me that 16-bit applications are already basically broken with 32-bit wine if you’re running a 64-bit kernel, by default it places extra restrictions over what the hardware already does to prevent apps from loading 16-bit code entirely.
https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/FAQ#16-bit-applications-fail-to-start
Guessing that’s why they don’t feel it’s that important to continue supporting, seems a VM is the future for these apps.
Yeah most 16 bit stuff is old enough that there’s already a mature reimplementation of the game engine or old enough that it’ll run nicely in a translation layer or VM
From what I’ve seen if an online store provides a 16 bit classic without a reimplementation, it’s bundled with dosbox.
Of course, I’m pretty much blanking on any classic Win16 titles of note. As far as I recall the significant games just kept being DOS games with at most launch from icon. I suppose original Myst because QuickTime, but they released a Win32 build. But this 16 bit stuff was a speculation, this is about the 32 bit stuff that isn’t reasonably accommodated without a 32 bit runtime and certain bits being at odds with Flatpak isolation architecture.
AFAIK, you couldn’t run 16-bit software on native Windows x64, so Wine is exhibiting the same behavior.
Anyway, these 16-bit softwares are old enough that running them in DOSBox or something like that won’t show any significant performance penalty through emulation vs translation.
Did he elaborate on why? Is it really that integral to have 32bit tools?
Afaik Steam still heavily relies on 32-Bit. And bazzite’s only purpose is Steam.
The comments in the thread don’t mention Steam itself, but it’s that running all the 32 bit games will become a problem. Steam’s flatpak packages the 32 bit packages so that can get around this change, but the flatpak is not official and does not support all features. Steam themselves only provide the RPM for Fedora.
steam package from rpmfusion is not official
Ah you’re right. It seems Steam only provides a *.deb as far as I can tell.
What features are missing on flatpak version? I am playing games that way without any issues…
I’m no expert, and I’m running Bazzite (and previously Nobara), both of which have the RPM installed by default so I don’t think I’ve ever used the Steam Flatpak. But things mentioned in the thread are VR and Gamescope.
I do wonder if any issues are related to permission restrictions that could be resolved editing permissions with Flatseal, but I don’t know enough about the issues.
If bazzites only purpose is steam then it would’ve probably “died” anyway when Holo Desktop releases
Ah yeah. Would be unfortunate. Bazzite was the least amount of setup i’ve ever had to do with linux and is the only repo I could recommend to someone non-technical
There are others like it and some better for those who are both non-technical and non-gamers. What you’re looking for is “immutable distro” https://itsfoss.com/immutable-linux-distros/ which is a distro of Linux that is very user friendly, much like Windows, in not allowing major changes to the OS. SteamOS is this as well.
It makes setup and updates much easier to manage and easier for users to use because it just works most of the time.
I tried fedora kinoite and the experience is much worse than bazzite. The nvidia drivers ware a pain to install on kinote but bazzite just provides an image with them already configured.
That makes me sad. Bazzite just refused to install on my new laptop (as did several others, amusingly) so it was back to manjaro for me.
Yes, and from what I understood:
- Steam is still 32bit. Two-thirds of Bazzite’s user base use the OS on handhelds requiring Steam’s gaming mode front-end. Installing Steam as a flatpak removes the ability to boot into gaming mode, and so alienating two-thirds of Bazzite’s user base.
- It will kill support for older games that are still 32bit. Wine’s WoW64 isn’t ready yet, and even so, building custom Proton for 32bit support (e.g. Including all the 32bit libraries inside of Proton itself) on top of the Proton provided by Valve is going to be very messy.
- OBS requires 32bit packages to capture video data from 32bit games. If 32bit is no longer supported, this’ll kill streamers playing older games (OBS is probably the most widely used software by streamers and game recorders).
- It would kill VR on Bazzite, as VR still makes use of 32bit features (I’m not sure why or which ones, but that’s what’s said).
Oh wow, if steam is still 32 bit, forget the offshoots, fedora itself won’t be worth using. I’m on fedora but if I can’t run steam, then I’m finding a new distro.
On the flip side, what’s the reason they want to drop 32-bit support, given steam depends on it, which they should understand means it’s integral to the size of their current userbase?
People just ditching Fedora for another distro is exactly what is being warned about on the linked forum thread, should the Fedora team decide to go through with it.
As for the why; the Fedora team says that 32bit libraries are annoying to maintain and that they can cut it out to save on time and resources. They consider 32bit old and no longer relevant.
However, others have said that if 32bit is still being used (also for none-game-related projects) then it’s still relevant and should still be maintained. Also that Fedora should develop according to what the user base wants, and not pull a Microsoft/Apple and force want they want on the user base.
…not pull a Microsoft/Apple and force want _they_ want on the user base.
This is why I personally stopped using anything from Canonical.
Lol if you think gamers, especially on fedora, are anything more than a rounding error in the total user pool
Glad I didnt install bazzite.
what did you go with?
I’ve heard CachyOS is good but I’m not the one to ask.
CachyOS is great, much better than Bazzite or Nobara IMO. Been daily driving it on my gaming rig with an NVIDIA GPU for ~9mo. Great performamce, no complaints.
How feasible is rebasing bazzite onto a different distro?
They fact they based it on Fedora in the first place seemed like a stupid choice, but I’ve been biased against Fedora for a long time lol.
IMO they should have based it off Arch or Ubuntu to align with the Steamdeck or SteamOS
After Bazzite I went to Garuda, is also gaming focused and has a handy helper app that helps you install common software, run updates, and more.
If you need a new distro it’s worth a look.
I went to Garuda
THERE’S DOZENS OF US, DOZENS!!
Hell yeah brother, make it 11 of us!
💪💪💪💪
Honestly go for EnOS. Garuda is neat and has a good default setup, but they’ve gone a little far with their modifications imo
There is a lite version, but sure whatever you prefer.
Honestly go for EnOS.
Is that the whole name? Because searching shows YenOS, EndeavorOS, EventOS, EndlessOS and one ENOS based off Xubuntu (a single 2020 mention for a 0.4 version)
Oh? I’m still a Linux noob, educate me.
I just don’t like their candy design that much and it’s effort to undo post-installation
I assume you are taking about desktop environment stuff? I installed the xfce version and it’s been pretty streamlined.
Well, I’m talking about their pre-installed software and custom theming
That’s fair, but as a Linux beginner, I was happy to have more software than I needed at the start rather than not enough. If you know what you are doing, I could see how you could have a different opinion.
Isn’t Garuda also based on Fedora?
Edit: I was thinking of Nobara.
god these names just sound the fucking same, garudo nobara banuda ronada, talking about linux gaming distros is liable to summon a demon
Genuinely funny comment, thank you.
I guarantee you will summon a number of daemons running any of them though!
I go with CachyOs Ik ik the compiler optimizations only give a minor difference and maybe major in latency but am just comfy with it.
I just like how minimal is the distroCachyos has some great default setup choices too. Limine with btrfs + snapper, all preconfigured… spot on!
Ohh yeah true I forgot they offer alterntive bootloaders that arent grub
Grub was really the only option if you wanted a snapper rollback though.
But now Limine is the new choice for me.
Systemd-boot doesn’t play with snapper.
True but systemd-boot also worked for me on opensuse?
Interesting. I wonder if opensuse wrote up their own solution to this. I did find a post from Cachyos Petr last year responding that he’d like to see more how opensuse boatloader is managed.
I only ever used grub with tumbleweed.
Why not just install the CachyOS kernel onto Fedora (like me)? I then deleted the stock kernle and now make sure to use --exclude=kernel* when updating. Works like a charm.
Throwing a tantrum isn’t how to get what you want. This is a common behavior in the OSS world from wannabe BDFLs. Linus Torvalds or Guido van Rossum earned that title through merit, not through the simple luck of your side project going viral.
Bazzite is just Fedora Atomic with some extra preinstalled software. If it dies, it’ll hurt the community of Linux gamers who picked it for whatever reason, but it won’t make Fedora maintain 32 bit packages forever.
Nobody’s throwing a tantrum. They’re just saying they can’t reasonably serve their purpose if they lose 32-bit support. A project so heavily based on other projects is subject to upstream whims, and they probably don’t have the manpower to do anything about it.
I’m not sure exactly what you expect of him?
It’s not a tantrum, just a statement of limitation. The primary reason for Bazzite to exist is to have a SteamOS-like Fedora. He mentions, in depth, how the ‘simple’ answer about using flatpak doesn’t work, because flatpak imposes isolation in ways that are incompatible with the use case.
His options seem to be to be “polite” and quiet right up until the change gets approved and implemented and only then yank the rug out from his community, or make the broader community know the implications of removed 32-bit userspace support.
This seems to be the whole point of soliciting feedback, to know what you are likely to break. It would be supremely odd if you make a proposal, solicit feedback, and call any mention of a bad consequence a ‘tantrum’ when that was the whole point of framing it as a proposal.
Seems like he needs either Steam to go 64-bit or for Fedora to keep 32-bit since flatpak can’t help and, presumably, he doesn’t want to try to take on the maintenance burden of trying to carry forward Fedora’s 32-bit rpms for the same reason Fedora is trying to get out of carrying them forward. Assuming the broad community decides Fedora 32-bit userspace is still needed, then it’s far less incremental work for Fedora to maintain along 64-bit than it is to independently add it back.
We shouldn’t be talking about stuff like this here. It spooks the noobs.
Why would they not just use an Arch base like the real SteamOS does?
Fedora and Red Hat are innovating image-based operating systems. Universal Blue builds on that work.
It would take effort to port that work to Arch. Arch is also a rolling distro, not updating means not getting security updates. Fedora’s release cycle allows them to get more stability, they don’t have to be using the latest version.
That’s reasonable. Thanks!
i think the effort has already been made, unless i’m misunderstanding what cachyos is
I used EndeavorOS in the past which was a successor to AntergOS, both arch based, with gui installer and easy nvidia driver setup, they both worked like a charm without any issues (unlike fucking Manjaro).
It’s interesting to hear how people’s experiences differ so much. I couldn’t get endeavor to work on my laptop (absolutely nothing would launch after the install), but manjaro was the definition of ‘it just works’ for me. I’d love to stop having things break because manjaro holds back updates for a week.
So was Bazzite founded by someone’s mate Baz or what?
God fucking damnit, I finally find a Linux OS that gels with me and I find this shit…
Note that this is just a proposal that the Fedora community wants feedback on.
Even if it does go ahead, this is minimum 1 year away from happening.
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if this was meant as a “hurry up and move away from Steam still being a 32-bit app, Valve!” bit of brinkmanship.
I thought the Steam Linux client was already native 64-bit?
If not, maybe this is the kind of push needed to get them to actually go full 64-bit?It’s still 32bit. i’ve heard it guessed that Valve does this on purpose because so many games are still 32bit and Wine/Proton/etc aren’t fully compatible yet. What does it matter if Steam works and most of the Steam library does not.
Seems like a good reason for the Wine / Proton WoW64 subsystem to improve.
If this happens, give Fedora itself a try. The only issue I’ve had with it is that my video card drivers didnt work right out of the gate and took a little bit of playing to get perfect.
Fedora is literally the source of this problem. Bazzite is based on Fedora.
Been with fedora for years, but fedora is the problem, so that would be pretty pointless.
