Okay, this comment section blew up.
I agree with the people pointing out that rich people encouraging veganism is hypocritical as hell.
But on the other hand, it’s kinda true. In the current system, it’s one of the best things to do, while also fighting to overthrow capitalism in the long term.
Also, you can be vegan and buy stuff like oatly, beyond and so on, or you can buy rice and beans. Either is better for the planet (and very much for the animals, probably also you) than meat, but the former a bit less.
I’m pretty sure excising the tumor that is the wealthy, the cause of most of our problems, comes first.
Yeah, so he is exactly right! Switching to a diet of very rich red meat
Anything to keep torturing animals
As Yanis Varoufakis mentioned, the technofeudalists(the wealthy who own Big Tech) are the new fascists
Cool, and you’re actively doing that? You’re working on a concrete plan that will actually create that outcome? And going vegan in the meantime will actually materially harm your efforts for that?
How often do we gotta pull out that tweet until you people learn? To paraphrase: "People online will be like ‘Your approach of veganism pales in comparison to my plan of eating the rich!’, and then never eat the rich or go vegan.
Lol no it fucking isn’t, all the biggest threats to our planet require collective action to address, individualist bullshit like this is deliberate propaganda in favor of the current status quo, the people pushing it are all either incurable morons or paid for it, sometimes both
Sounds like an excuse to do nothing. “Why should I change how I live my life? I’d rather whine on the internet that something else should be done by someone else”.
You’re blaming the peasants for eating meat while the ruling class jump from yacht to yacht in private jets, your priorities are stupid and your strategy is completely useless
I didn’t blame people for eating meat. I blamed them for inaction. Because instead of taking an action that brings some positive results, you opt to do absolutely nothing. Your strategy is more than useless - it’s delusional.
You don’t have a clue what actions anyone is talking and you don’t care, you just want to deflect from the biggest threats to our environment and focus on individual action. You’re either a moron or an ag industry psyop, embarrassing either way.
As related by famed biologist and renowned chemist Woody Harrelson PhD, millionaire esq.
NEVER Trust the rich when they tell you that your decisions are causing the problems.
The real problem is that the rich only give the poor so many options to choose from. Then they tell the poor to blame other poors for choosing wrong.
NEVER TRUST CELEBRITIES OR THEIR PROPAGANDA
Well, the beauty of research is that you can actually do it, instead of spouting whatever nonsense that was.
If Bill Gates tells you tomorrow to not kill puppies, you killing puppies overmorrow?
The real problem is that the rich only give the poor so many options to choose from.
So the rich do not give you the option to reduce the animal products in your diet? IMHO there are many good reasons to blame rich people, big oil etc., but that doesn’t mean that everyone individually is released from any kind of responsibility. Vegan diets are available, affordable and healthy. If you’re unwilling to question your habits and adapt your lifestyle for the better, that’s your choice. Don’t put the blame on others.
“… Don’t put the blame on others.”
Only thing you said that’s close to correct. Don’t be pretentious.
Humans are omnivores. Eating meat is okay. If you wanna discuss the ethics of end-user life choices under late-stge capitalism in a food desert, that’s fine, but don’t sugar coat your morals and shove them down my throat. Just don’t eat meat for yourself, and be the change you want to see in the world. If you’re doing it so you can tell others what to do, or that they’re not as good as you because they don’t do what you do, then you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don’t have to blame big oil, I can blame the rich people exploring capitalism. They’re the reason all the otherwise affordable stuff is expensive. Single-mom Susie and hunter Dave feeding their family are not the problem. Capitalism is the problem, and the rich people want to keep getting richer.
They’re blaming the poor with a baited line, and you swallowed.
Yelling omnivores is exactly as stupid as conservatives talking about this or that being natural or unnatural.
And in socialism, the exploitation of the planet for meat production didn’t happen? I’d love to see any sort of data on that.
Finally, you likely pretend to be smart, at least much smarter than all the capitalism fans. Yet, you lack any and all concept of the material reality of meat production, or most production while we’re at it. Meat production IS unsustainable at anywhere close to the amount we have today. Throw in environmental and worker protection, and you’ll eat meat like caviar.
BTW, if in your dream worker collective, everybody votes to keep polluting the earth because they just can’t give up meat, do I then get to have morals?
I never said socialism was better, and I never said i was an omnivore. I’m not entirely sure, but it seems like you’re changing what I said in your mind so you can win an argument we aren’t actually having.
If you want to discuss what I was trying to say, try this: I believe that the production of animal products for consumption inherently creates emissions and causes environmental damages that come as part of the production process. The owners of these businesses receive compensation for the production of this product. I believe that the people who own businesses and receive this compensation are the ones who should be responsible for the emissions and damages caused by their businesses, not the people who consume their products.
Eating meat isn’t the problem, and therefore not eating meat will not solve the problem. Unless, of course, you can somehow convince the population of the world to stop consuming meat, which sounds rather idyllic. Veganism can, however, have numerous health benefits. And if you don’t like animals dying just so you can eat, then boy do i have a diet for you!
The reason people say that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism is because capitalism is exploitative by nature. Any time you consume something produced in a capitalist market, you are incentivizing exploitation. That is a value we have to compromise on to some degree or other in order to live within a capitalist market system.
I definitely didn’t say socialism was any better.
If you want to disagree with any of that, we can discuss it. But i was already an asshole to rbn yesterday and I don’t want that happening again, either direction. So if you’re not going to discuss my actual opinion, then just don’t bother at all.
If billions of people on the planet want to eat animal products, this inevitably causes significant harm to the nature, the animals and ourselves (global warming, pandemics etc.). Just because our species lived off meat in the past (with way less individuals) that doesn’t mean we can and should continue like this.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem.
It is the exploitation of the production for profits, which is not a choice of the consumer. This is what causes the problems in nature: increases in greenhouse gasses like methane and the inability of our planet to re-uptake carbon through the reckless destruction of carbon locking plant life environments like oceans and forests, etc all.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat all you want but personal responsibility is incapable of balancing out the atrocities that are rewarded thru capitalism. This is intentional, and it is being perpetuated by the ones being rewarded for it. The rich.
If you think for one minute that not eating animal products is going to resolve these issues, then you’re deluding yourself.
There is nothing wrong with not eating animal products, if you can afford to live like that. But be honest with yourself about the realities that others experience; both those who can’t afford to or just don’t want to live like that, and the ones exploiting the world’s resources for personal gain. There is a huge difference in culpability between these groups.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem. It is the exploitation of the production for profits
Greenhouse gases aren’t created through exploitation, but by the pure existence of the animals. Even if we hypothetically held all animals under perfect conditions (which is impossible anyhow due to lack of land and ressources), it doesn’t significantly reduce the greenhouse gases. If you want to lower the emmissions, people must lower and ideally stop the consumption.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat
I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores. I fingerpoint at people who claim that people consuming animal products is only the fault of some third party rich people. We know that veganism helps the planet in many aspects. If you decide to live different that’s OK, but it’s your choice.
if you can afford to live like that.
Unless you’re a Mongolian shepard in an area where soil and weather allow nothing but grass and goats or you live off food donations only, that’s not true. For people who buy their food in supermarkets, veganism isn’t more expensive than an omnivore diet. If you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually rather cheaper.
If I stop eating meat will you force others to stop too?
I’m not forcing anyone to do anything. First I don’t want to do that and even if I wanted, I don’t have any power over people.
If you genuinely consider to stop or reduce eating meat, I’d highly appreciate that! :)
“Greenhouse gasses aren’t created through exploitation”
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument. Exploitation of resources is the single biggest cause of greenhouse gas accumulation in the world today. You clearly lack an understanding of the causes and sources of greenhouse gasses.
“I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores”
And “… people must lower and ideally stop [animal product] consumption.”These are mutually exclusive statements. One cannot be true while stating the other at the same time.
“Unless you’re a Mongolian shepherd…”
This^ is the beginning of one of the most privileged, bigoted, ignorant, vapid, dishonest, and ridiculous statements you’ve ever uttered in your life.
“if you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually cheaper.”
Blaming individual people again for costing themselves too much by trying to be comfortable. Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world to enrich themselves off it’s resources and rob us of our future in doing so… financially, environmentally, spiritually, physically. All so they can add another decimal point to their uncountable dragon’s hoard office wealth.
This exploitation is the cause of almost all of our problems, and it isn’t perpetuated by consumers. It is perpetuated by the elite and propaganda that people like yourself regurgitate that puts the onus on the poor, and allows you to live guilt free in some ideal fantasy in your own head because you’re doing your part and everyone else just needs to live by your rules.
You sound like a corporate shill. A capitalist apologist. An entitled individual of privilege who lacks empathy and culture, but not lacking in the time and money to go to nice grocery stores for ingredients you can craft into healthy, balanced, wholesome meals.
Regardless of who you are versus who you sound like, you are incapable of making reasonable arguments. Best of luck convincing people of your opinion when you can’t see where they’re coming from. Have a nice day.
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This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument.
There are many humans on this planet. If a majority of these humans consumes animal products as they do today this means massive greenhouse gases. If you see a way to strike out the emmissions without striking out production and consumption - please enlighten me.
These are mutually exclusive statements.
They aren’t.
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If you want to lower emmissions from animal agriculture, you have to reduce animal agriculture. As an intermediate step you may have some options to switch to smaller animals such as insects instead of larger animals. But as acceptance of insect food is much lower than vegan food, I see little sense in pursuing that strategy.
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I don’t think bad of people for being omnivores. That’s the traditional way how humans lived forever. People are used to consume animal products and it’s hard to break with habits. Not everyone has the mental capacity to do so, people have other priorities in life. That’s fine for me.
But if someone else is running around saying ‘consuming animal products is not problematic, it’s all about the rich!’ then that’s incorrect from my perspective and I want to point that out.
Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world
I literally wrote in my initial post that ‘there are many good reasons to blame rich people’. The fact that many rich people have a negative impact on our society and planet, …
- does not mean that individual consumers are completely off the hook in all kinds of moral questions.
- that everything any rich person says is automatically wrong
Especially in a topic like veganism I can’t see an intrinsic motivation of ‘the rich elite’ to force animal products on the people. You can be rich by selling meat or you can be rich by selling tofu. Selling vegan alternatives at a large scale to the masses would probably even lead to higher profits as the production is cheaper.
allows you to live guilt free
Veganism isn’t about being morally inferior. A moral lifestyle has numerous aspects, veganism is just one aspect. Being a good person is not limited to veganism or trying to protect the environment in general. It’s not about rating people against each other. Yet, it’s absolutely fair to say from my perspective that veganism can do a lot of good for the world: reduce CO2 and methane emmissions, lower the risk of famines, reduce animal harm, reduce deforestation and land use, lower the risk of pandemics and resistent germs, get rid of the horrible working conditions for factory workers in the animal industry and many more.
All humans just going vegan at once is completely delusional. But every single person helps, even if it’s just lowering the consumption a bit helps.
And my point is that it is absolutely in the power of each individual to take these small steps. If you want it, no rich person can hinder you from that.
you are incapable of making reasonable arguments
Major parts of your post are personally attacking and insulting me. That’s not necessarily what I’d consider a healthy debate. But unfortunately it seems to be a very emotional topic I guess.
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I think it was very clear from context they were talking about exploitation of animals, not resources in general.
Absolutely. But that practical reality doesn’t substantiate the insufferable moral superiority vegans are addicted to.
Practical veganism doesn’t finger wag because practical veganism understands how unproductive that is.
The only serious vegans are the ones who advocate for lab cultured proteins. But those are few and far between.
Sure, but what if we could fight billionaires in a ring?
Those are not mutually exclusive
Nice! Let’s do both!
I think he’s right. We should all change to a 100% Billionaire diet…
No, the ‘number one’ way to help the planet is to not have children, undeniable fact. Diet is number two
Actually, deposing the wealthy is #1, no children #2, and diet #3.
I feel like not having kids kinda defeats the purpose of saving the planet
That’s your DNA’s raging narcissism speaking. Not to impugn yours specifically, of course. The interests of an intelligent mind are not the same as the interests of the biological system that hosts it. Consider what’s actually important to you as more than a pile of meat. Reproduction is so selfish when there are so many humans with unmet needs already reaching out for your help.
I’ve not had 20 kids, so now I get to eat a bunch of animals, and fly a bunch of private jets, and roll coal all day long!
Also, your decision to eat meat in a western country DOES actually cause as much damage as some entire families existence in the poorer countries like Nigeria.
I think the assumption is that he’s talking about people changing their diets. Can’t / probably shouldn’t advocate for parents getting rid of their children.
That said, there are probably more direct actions one can take for our ecology that eclipse consumer choices.
not parents getting rid of their children; people not having them in the first place
no no, let’s explore this…
That’s a lot of absolutism for someone not specifying a defining context.
No definition of “help”, “the planet” or “diet” means it’s wide open to contra-examples.
Number one is rich kids.
The !climate@slrpnk.net mods disliked that as they were never ever serious about tackling climate change 🤪
“Mods?” Looks like one guy. Shameful, @silence7@slrpnk.net
Most environmentalists online, exactly like most leftists online, are focussed on purity of speech and moral grandstanding, not on any actual impact a person might have. Even though no individual can or should change anything, magically, a Collective will form, creating The Revolution, which will Eat the Rich and destroy the System, all without any of them having had to make material changes in their lives.
deposing the tech bros is the no 1 way to help our planet
Not even close. Dealing with the excess personal ambitions of the wealthy would do far more.
Can you do that?
Nobody can. We’re fucked.
So why are you even bringing it up then
To share the pain.
Learned hopelessness. You do more for the rich by wanting something more equal but being too pathetic to even believe it’s possible than those who are entirely ignorant of our exploitation.
If you want to break this cycle you should start doing small things that make a difference. This will teach you change is possible, give you hope and make you more able to resist your oppression. Something like going vegan is a good place to start. A small change with a lot of impact.
Change happens all the time but its shaped by power, which the vast majority if individuals have very little of and seem to insist on never using. Collective empower is our only chance and everyone refuses to exercise it, at always have, so its really just the illusion of power.
Also, learned hopelessness comes from actual hopelessness. Just because you want to be hopeful doesn’t mean there is any hope, you’re just deluding yourself to protect your feelings.
So you’re a champion of collective power but don’t believe that the choices people make have any impact and thus individuals in a collective shouldn’t pursue change?
Maybe because no one is leading by example? You don’t even have to commit to veganism to help. Just trying to eat less meat adds up quickly, especially when you do it and encourage others to do the same. That is one of the many ways collective action can kick off.
It’s actually called a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché and you deploy it to avoid processing thoughts and feelings that are better socially for you to pretend you don’t understand. You’re afraid of abandoning or being abandoned by your tribe, so you have to do everything and anything to avoid thinking about the vast cruelty and needless violence that you are participating in every day.
That’s a ridiculous conclusion.
It might be wrong, but it’s certainly not ridiculous. Everyone ones it. EVERYONE does it. It’s the most basic human psychology. There’s nothing ridiculous about thinking you are doing it, when you are giving all the signs.
You forget. You’re a tourist here. You’ve never really even deeply thought about these subjects in your entire life. Meanwhile many of us have been here for more than a decade, and we’ve been seeing people exactly like you doing exactly what you are doing the whole time.
Fuck, we all used to BE you. We all used to do the exact same things, employ all the exact same psychological defense mechanisms. You have no idea how transparent you are right now.
Why come here of all places and argue from a place of ignorance about the effects of animal exploitation. Seriously, think about that. What are you doing here?
I can tell you. You’re coping with thoughts and feelings that you are not prepared to fully process, but which you also cannot put away.
Unless being vegan would keep you from actually eating the rich, this point is utterly and completely irrelevant.
To illustrate, imagine some celebrity said “rape culture is bad, and everyone should work against it!”. Do I, as some average guy, get a pass if I talk about how “um akschually, Epstein Island, Trump, bla bla”?
Like, seriously, my INDIVIDUAL impact on womens liberation is exactly as big as your impact on animals rights. So do we both get to just not care, and sit on our lazy asses, because we can’t, on our own, change the world?
You people talk a big game about material reality, about systems, but you’ve turned “systems” into a near religious excuse for personal inaction. “The revolution” is the second coming, and all you have to do is believe. Not act, not make the world a better place, just preach.
Not really given the bold claim in the op title.
Back in the 90s I calculated that the US could save the Amazon rainforest by cutting our meat consumption by 10% and legalizing hemp (not marijuana). I no longer have the math available but the gist of it was that a 10% decrease in beef cattle feed would cause a corresponding drop in demand for feed corn, and if that much cornfield land were converted to hemp (which would work agriculturally) and the hemp were used to make paper, demand to import pulp logs from SA would decrease enough to demotivate logging the rainforest - where most logs at the time were being harvested for pulp. As a side benefit, the paper would last a lot longer but wouldn’t be more expensive.
Took me a lot of time and effort to do the research for that. Dunno if it’s still valid in today’s economy.
I would love to see this data if you’re willing to do the research again! Much more likely to trust you, a slrpnk fellow, than Woody Harrelson
You can think of Woody Harrelson as a celebrity, but you can also think of him as a well-documented individual who has consistently gotten involved in contemporary social issues and has always come down on the right side of complex matters where there are a lot of public confusion. He’s an activist now, he doesn’t even perform anymore.
Here’s some 5 seconds of googling: https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food
thanks man I appreciate it! C:
Has Woody Harrelson even gone vegan? Last I saw, he was promoting the astroturfed pseudo-regenerative cattle ranching stuff.
Anyway I can already hear the impending, “no ethical consumption under capitalism” nihilists on their way. To those who denigrate any lifestyle modifications as ways to try to make the world better: if individual change didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be a market for plant-based foods at all, and nor would there be Linux. If all you ever focus on is the bad stuff you wish would go away, then yeah all seems lost. But that’s not the big picture. Good is created, and good grows. But for that to keep happening, it needs to be chosen and promoted.
Maybe try going on a bike ride while you’re at it.
-1 for not RTFA. Second sentence: “The actor and longtime vegan…”
Didn’t read the article til now, damn you caught me!
Still skeptical.
You make a great point. I am not vegan but I have a condition that makes me allergic to red meat and mammal products of any kind such as milk, cheese etc. I am extremely grateful for my oat milk and potato-based vegan cheeses.
Norm Macdonald voice
As compared to the number two way:
I gotta say, extrapolating from this thread, this is the worst “vegan” community I’ve seen since /r/vegan.
AFAIK a low-emission diet is actually number two - transportation is still the number one individual source of climate related emissions.
That’s also the one that skews the most toward richer people - rich people take the most flights, cruises and yachts which are the worst ways to travel for the environment.
Sure, but there’s a strong upper bound to how much we can reduce transportation. There’s also a limit on rich people, meaning the absolute savings to be had, even if all of them “transported” like the median person, is miniscule compared to the meat industry.
Meat is also just one category of food, whereas “transportation” is an entire concept. We can remove all meat and still have food.
Finally, what is more realistic? 10% of people going vegan, or all rich people suddenly stop using cruises etc.? “But it’s not my job, but it’s not my fault, but they should!” In the history of all social justice movements, never has it been anyones job, and never have the people most responsible been the ones to do the job. It is what it is.
You can EASILY reduce your animal exploitation to zero no matter your economic situation. You still have to move your body and goods around no matter how you change your lifestyle.
We can consider believing that only if we assume everyone is privileged enough to have constant access to vegan food. Which is a ridiculous assumption. Being vegan is great and I’m glad people choose to, but you must have a warped view of how others live if you think it’s not just possible, but “EASY” to have that diet. Billions of people cannot even afford the luxury of food that isn’t the cheapest and most processed food money can buy.
And this is not even addressing your “zero” assertion. Unless you carefully grow and harvest your own crops, all your meals ended up killing and hurting small animals that were attempting to live in a field where your meal was grown.
I hate this argument. I was vegan when I was living off $10 a week. I was vegan when I was in the homless center.
I cried my first night in that shelter. They provided dinner, it was cheap box mac n cheese, some meat I forget and broccoli, I started crying, a hormonal nursing mother, the cook noticed. He let me swap the meat and cheese for extra broccoli and there was always apples and oranges in a bowl for folks. Fridays, they let us bring in our own food and use the kitchen, once they set me up with food stamps, it was game on fridays for me.
I was vegan for my poorest years. Before being at the shelter, in them $10 a week days… Not proud of it, but I stole zuchini from a farm stand once. took three of them, I was truly starving. One day later, I saw random cans of tomatoes on the sidewalk in front of a church, took those too. made a nice meal I hadnt had in a while.
I ate can veg and beans as meals. I ate plain ass noodles with salt, I ate weird veg mashes I got from the foodbank and just threw it all in a pan with some rice.
Desperation teaches you many things.
No I couldnt afford vegan products, vegan meat or cheeses, but anything marked vegan is going to have a jacked price. The entire produce section, and a lot of the tinned section, the whole pasta section, is all vegan without having the little V printed on it.
Learning to cook is the way.
In fact I stumbled on veganism because I legit wanted cake, but had no milk, eggs or butter. Was too broke to buy them. I found a recipie for “Depression Cake” and that was my first vegan meal I ever made myself intentionally. I got into vegan baking, because it was cheaper. Then I just gave up all meat, and eventually cheese, because it was cheaper. Thats why I started, to save money. Then I started reading about factory farming practices. Dont watch Earthlings while nursing a newborn. Dont recommend, but that film changed my life. I was already plant bases (I always consumed local honey seasonally tbh) but Earthings solidified everything.
Ten years ago, it was like vegan food (dry beans and sacks of rice) was practically free. I didn’t even care that I was poor. Everything is hard, now, even getting cheap dry beans and whole grains.
there any cookbooks/similar you’d reccomend?
I learned from my gaurdian growing up first, and then watching tons of early '00 Food Network. The only cookbook I have is Julia Childs, which Im not sure Id start with that. And if you are a noob, I absolutely recomend videos over books or written recipies. There are thousands apon thousands of cookbooks. Some folks Ive seen recomment Salt Fat Acid Heat often, like often often, ive never read it, but could be a start.
This series is good (maybe) for someone starting out. Jacques Pépin Cooking At Home YT
I also like the Post Punk Kitchen for vegan stuff: https://www.theppk.com/recipes/
I have found this website helpful for more vegan meal ideas as they are just tradional recipies that happen to be vegan: https://bakinghermann.com/ The Assasins speghetti is very easy and fun to make
Since im just shamlessly plugging, I speak very minimal Spanish, but I have learned a lot recently from this creator, that is when Im not drooling over her kitchen set up(shes not vegan just fyi lol) La Herencia de las Viudas Youtube
The question I should ask is, what kind of foods do you want to learn to prepare? How much do you already know? What ingredients do you have easy access to, and what your kitchen is equiped for? Do you want to bake a dessert or make a main meal?
There are so many places one can start.
I dont recommend a book, I recommend a 10" cast iron, a wooden spoon, and an internet connection, I jest in part, you’ll need a least one pot too ;)
Literally anyone wants help learning, I can do my best. If you can tell me what youd like to make, I can help. If one was in my kitchen asking, I’d absolutely start with some simple pasta dish. Fresh tomato sauce was the first thing I learned, but tastes and regions are vast.
Edit: and you can make fresh sauce with tinned tomatoes. They dont have to be fresh tomatoes truly. Budget is also a massive factor, there are so many different ways to go about cooking within your budget.
You may hate the argument, and I get that too, but many people just don’t have your level of knowledge. Many men I know for example, literally wouldn’t even know how to operate a stovetop. I’m not even trying to make the point that it’s the most common situation to not have a possible way to being vegan, I’m just trying to make the point that it is ludicrous to suggest that everyone can “EASILY” go fully vegan today. That makes so many assumptions that don’t fit the lives of many people.
So who do you think is the better authority here, you, someone who has never even tried it, or hundreds of community members who come from all backgrounds and have spent years actually living in this space? The fucking arrogance to come here and tell poor and food insecure vegans that there are no Christians in foxholes. The absolute fucking arrogance. Next you are going to tell our indigenous members that it’s racist against indigenous people to say everyone can stop exploiting animals.
Everyone can learn to read.
Everyone can learn to cook. Some need guidance. I try to help folks where I am able in this, in my daily life. Help your homies learn to cook.
We get no where on our own.
Everyone can learn to read.
See, this is exactly my point. No, they absolutely cannot. Over half of adults in America are functionally illiterate. I’m close to someone who teaches middle schoolers to read who struggle, usually with a combination of horrible educational background, low income situations, intellectual disability, or hardship caused by having to flee their country of origin, for their own safety.
Even if we had universally offered free classes to teach reading and cooking (we don’t, not even close), there still would be many people who wouldn’t even be able to take advantage of them, for various reasons.
What I’m really arguing here is against the absolutist attitude. It’s just not helpful and it sets you up mentally to be even more disappointed in people than you’d be without the attitude…
Edit: the fact that this comment is getting downvotes tells you all you need to know about why people have to choose veganism in spite of your horrible messaging about it, and never because of it.
yes they can, with help.
with help
What the fuck is it, to each ones ability and each ones need or some shit.
Help. You, person here, should help.
I dislike absolutist attitudes too. Its just, just help.
edit, my neighbors mow thier grass to dirt. Shoulda seen this fuck yesterday across my street creating a dust storm just so he could sit on a tractor with a beer. This doesnt mean I do the same. Do you, in whatever ways you can, to be a helper. I literally sat 8 feet from a bunny hiding in the shaded tall clover while I swear this bun was watching this fool with me.
Yeah cause rice, beans and produce are the single most expensive foods in existence. I take out a mortgage every time I get hungry. 😂🙄
You may not be able to grasp the concept that many people live a long drive/walk from even a friggin grocery store but it’s still their reality which you’ve chosen to refuse an ounce of understanding toward.
Yeah, WE LIVE IN THOSE PLACES.
Food deserts existing is completely irrelevant to your price point argument. You’re just jumping around to different cliches.
Are you truly trying to tell me that it’s cheaper to eat fast food on the daily as opposed to getting shelf stable rice/beans available in bulk? My wife and I eat for a week cheaper than a one of us getting a meat based meal from any restaurant.
Food deserts existing is completely irrelevant to your price point argument
It’s 100% exactly one of the situations I was referring to.
This is just pointless talking to you here. You’ve clearly made up your mind that not only is every non-vegan actively not choosing veganism, they do so even though their lives would be easier if they did.
Okay. Explain how.
I’m also still waiting to hear how veganism is more expensive?
Or are we done here? Because it seems like you would rather stamp your feet, insist your right and call names instead of supporting your argument.
I can tell you are coming across some of these ideas for the first time, and you are having the exact same knee-jerk reactions that everyone does. You just filled at LEAST three separate tiles on a vegan bingo card.
You’re going to pull the “I’m too poor to not murder” shit with me? I live on 14k CAD a year. If I can do it, you can fucking do it. In reality, plant food is the cheapest food you can get.
Ohhhhhh, suddenly, despite having the flesh of vulnerable individuals still stuck in your teeth, you care SOOO MUCH about the poor mousies and butterflies. But that’s not what I said, is it? Those animals are not being exploited.
In addition to eliminating exploitation, of course I want to minimize the absolute harm I do, but that is a different subject. If you stopped and actually thought about it for a second, you would realize that the way to do that is to eat plants, because if you eat meat, an order of magnitude more plants have to be grown to feed those animals, and so you end up mulching up more mousies. So it’s an ignorant argument. You’ve literally never had a serious thought about these subjects in your life.
Spare me your thought-terminating cliches. If you are not emotionally prepared to process these ideas, go cope somewhere else.
What an unrelatable privilege-assed human. People live in food deserts all over America, as only one example. You can pretend they don’t all you want, but all you’ll do is give people the impression that vegans are out of touch assholes. For the record, and to reiterate, I support veganism. Just not people like you who lie and dodge truth because you need to feel superior. You’re absolutely working against what you claim to advocate for.
PS; username checks all the way out.
And there are vegans in every single fucking one of those food deserts. You’re looking for moral cover for your cruelty and violence. You better fucking go somewhere else to find it.
Why are you so angry and judgy? Why would I want to talk to you about anything? No thanks.
I’m literally asking you to stop saying stupid shit, I’m glad we are finally in agreement.
Why am I angry? Because you’re fucking erasing me for your own selfish, emotional reasons. You’re telling me I don’t exist. You’re telling me you are going to continue to visit torture, atrocity and murder on PEOPLE I LOVE, because you are too fucking cowardly to have an honest thought.
I also notice how you’ve totally dropped the transportation angle once it failed to serve as a distraction from the thoughts and feelings that you are unwilling to process.
You are having trouble with this because you are trying to avoid confronting your own needless cruelty and violence. Until you own up to that, you are going to continuously seek out new distractions and excuses, never seriously engaging with the core issues.
you’ve totally dropped the transportation angle
No I didn’t drop anything. You’ve lost the thread.
you are trying to avoid confronting your own needless cruelty and violence
This is the kind of sanctimonious shit that guarantees many people who could choose veganism, never will. I noticed your addressed absolutely zero of the valid points I made. Kinda admitting I’m right to bring them up.
This is the kind of sanctimonious shit that guarantees many people who could choose veganism, never will.
This is how people actually stop abusing animals. Until you fully accept that you are an animal abuser, you are going to continue seeking out ways to excuse your horrific treatment of vulnerable individuals. The only way to stop is to take moral responsibility. And THAT is what you are reacting to, that is what you are rejecting so vehemently.
Oh I’m sorry, which points were those? You have to admit, I addressed a LOT of your shitty, counterfactual points. I know all of the cliches, please, give me your best one.
Why are you so angry and judgy? Why would I want to talk to you about anything? No thanks.
In my country they are both 22% but either way, reducing your car trips doesn’t give you the right to kill innocent animals.
What about the guilty ones?
“It’s coming right at us!”
In the US, its transport, because people drive cars and sit in traffic so much.
The rest of the world its 2nd or 3rd behind power generation and food.
