Let’s play devils advocate. You find Bob the pedophile with pictures depicting horrible things. 2 things are true.
Although you can’t necessarily help Bob you can lock him up preventing him from doing harm and permanently brand him as a dangerous person making it less likely for actual children to be harmed.
Bob can’t claim actual depictions of abuse are AI generated and force you to find the unknown victim before you can lock him and his confederates up. If the law doesn’t distinguish between simulated and actual abuse then in both cases Bob just goes to jail.
A third factor is that this technology and the inherent lack of privacy on the internet could potentially pinpoint numerous unknown pedophiles who can even if they haven’t done any harm yet be profitably persecuted to societies ultimate profit so long as you value innocent kids more than perverts.
Am I reading this right? You’re for prosecuting people who have broken no laws?
I’ll add this; I have sexual fantasies (not involving children) that would be repugnant to me IRL. Should I be in jail for having those fantasies, even though I would never act on them?
This sounds like some Minority Report hellscape society.
What about an AI gen of a violent rape and murder. Shouldn’t that also be illegal.
But we have movies that have protected that sort of thing for years; graphically. Do those the become illegal after the fact?
And we also have movies of children being victimized so do these likewise become illegal?
We already have studies that show watching violence does not make one violent and while some refuse to accept that, it is well established science.
There is no reason to believe the same isn’t true for watching sexual assault. There are been many many movies that contain such scenes.
But ultimately the issue will become that there is no way to prevent it. The hardware to generate this stuff is already in our pockets. It may not be efficient but it’s possible and efficiency will increase.
The prompts to generate this stuff are easily shared and there is no way to stop that without monitoring all communication and even then I’m sure work around would occur.
Prohibition requires society sacrifice freedoms and we have to decide what weee willing to sacrifice here because as we’ve seen with or prohibitions, once we unleash the law on one, it can be impossible to undo.
Ok watch adult porn then watch a movie in which women or children are abused. Note how the abuse is in no way sexualized exactly opposite of porn. It often likely takes place off screen and when rape in general appears on screen between zero and no nudity co-occurs. For children it basically always happens off screen.
Simulated child abuse has been federally illegal for ~20 years in the US and we appear to have very little trouble telling the difference between prosecuting pedos and cinema even whilst we have struggled enough with sexuality in general.
But ultimately the issue will become that there is no way to prevent it.
This argument works well enough for actual child porn. We certainly don’t catch it all but every prosecution takes one more pedo off the streets. The net effect is positive. We don’t catch most car thieves either and nobody suggests we legalize car theft.
Am I reading this right? You’re for prosecuting people who have broken no laws?
No I’m for making it against the law to simulate pedophile shit as the net effect is fewer abused kids than if such images were to be legal. Notably you are free to fantasize about whatever you like its the actual creation and sharing of images that would be illegal. Far from being a minority report hellscape its literally the present way things already are many places.
Lol, how can you say that do confidently? How would you know that with fewer AI CP you get less abused kids? And what is the logic behind it?
Demand doesn’t really drop if something is illegal (same goes for drugs). The only thing you reduce is offering, which just resulting in making the thing that got illegal more valuable (this wakes attention of shady money grabbers that hate regulation / give a shit about law enforcement and therefore do illegal stuff to get money) and that you have to pay a shitton of government money maintaining all the prisons.
Basically every pedo in prison is one who isn’t abusing kids. Every pedo on a list is one who won’t be left alone with a young family member. Actually reducing AI CP doesn’t actually by itself do anything.
Good arguments. I think I am convinced that both cases should be illegal.
If the pictures are real they probably increase demand, which is harmful. If the person knew, then the action therefore should result in jail and forced therapy.
If the pictures are not, forced therapy is probably the best option.
So I guess it being illegal in most cases simply to force therapy is the way to go. Even if it in one case is “victimless”. If they don’t manage to plausibly seem rehabilitated by professionals, then jail time for them.
I would assume (but don’t really know) most pedophiles don’t truly want to act on it, and don’t want to have those urges. And would voluntarily go to therapy.
Which is why I am convinced prevention is the way to go. Not sacrificing privacy. In Norway we have anonymous ways for pedophiles to seek help. There have been posters and ads for it a lot of places a year back or something. I have not researched how it works in practice though.
Edit: I don’t think the therapy we have in Norway is conversion therapy. It’s about minimizing risk and helping deal with the underlying causes, medication, childhood trauma etc. I am not necessarily convinced that conversion therapy works.
Therapy is well and good and I think we need far more avenues available for people to get help (for all issues). That said, sexuality and attraction are complicated.
Let me start by saying I am not trying to state there is a 1:1 equivalence, this is just a comparison, but we have long abandoned conversion therapy for homosexuals, because we’ve found these preferences are core to them and not easily overwritten. The same is true for me as a straight person, I don’t think therapy would help me find men attractive. I have to imagine the same is true for pedophiles.
The question is, if AI can produce pornography that can satisfy the urges of someone with pedophilia without harming any minors, is that a net positive? Remember the attraction is not the crime, it’s the actions that harm others that are. Therapy should always be on the table.
This is a tricky subject because we don’t want to become thought police, so all our laws are built in that manner. However there are big exceptions for sexual crimes due to the gravity of their impact on society. It’s very hard to “stand up” for pedophilia because if acted upon it has monstrous effects, but AI is making us open this can of worms that I don’t belive we ever really thought through besides criminalizing and demonizing (which could be argued was the correct approach with the technology at the time).
I really don’t know enough about the subject or how that therapy works. I doubt that it is conversion therapy, but Ii really don’t know. I would assume it’s handling childhood trauma, medications etc.
Both therapy and if satisfying urges through AI generated content, is both something that should be answered scientifically. If there is research then that should be the basis for what decisions is taken, if there is a lack of research then more research should be the next step.
If the pictures are not, forced therapy is probably the best option.
This is true, but it really depends how “therapy” is defined. And forced therapy could mean anything from things like the old conversion therapy approach for gay people.
You might argue that these days we wouldn’t do anything so barbaric, but considering that the nature of a pedophile’s is very unsavory, and the fact that it will never be acceptable, unlike homosexuality, people would be far more willing to abuse or exploit said “therapy”
Let’s play devils advocate. You find Bob the pedophile with pictures depicting horrible things. 2 things are true.
Although you can’t necessarily help Bob you can lock him up preventing him from doing harm and permanently brand him as a dangerous person making it less likely for actual children to be harmed.
Bob can’t claim actual depictions of abuse are AI generated and force you to find the unknown victim before you can lock him and his confederates up. If the law doesn’t distinguish between simulated and actual abuse then in both cases Bob just goes to jail.
A third factor is that this technology and the inherent lack of privacy on the internet could potentially pinpoint numerous unknown pedophiles who can even if they haven’t done any harm yet be profitably persecuted to societies ultimate profit so long as you value innocent kids more than perverts.
Am I reading this right? You’re for prosecuting people who have broken no laws?
I’ll add this; I have sexual fantasies (not involving children) that would be repugnant to me IRL. Should I be in jail for having those fantasies, even though I would never act on them?
This sounds like some Minority Report hellscape society.
Correct. This quickly approaches thought crime.
What about an AI gen of a violent rape and murder. Shouldn’t that also be illegal.
But we have movies that have protected that sort of thing for years; graphically. Do those the become illegal after the fact?
And we also have movies of children being victimized so do these likewise become illegal?
We already have studies that show watching violence does not make one violent and while some refuse to accept that, it is well established science.
There is no reason to believe the same isn’t true for watching sexual assault. There are been many many movies that contain such scenes.
But ultimately the issue will become that there is no way to prevent it. The hardware to generate this stuff is already in our pockets. It may not be efficient but it’s possible and efficiency will increase.
The prompts to generate this stuff are easily shared and there is no way to stop that without monitoring all communication and even then I’m sure work around would occur.
Prohibition requires society sacrifice freedoms and we have to decide what weee willing to sacrifice here because as we’ve seen with or prohibitions, once we unleash the law on one, it can be impossible to undo.
Ok watch adult porn then watch a movie in which women or children are abused. Note how the abuse is in no way sexualized exactly opposite of porn. It often likely takes place off screen and when rape in general appears on screen between zero and no nudity co-occurs. For children it basically always happens off screen.
Simulated child abuse has been federally illegal for ~20 years in the US and we appear to have very little trouble telling the difference between prosecuting pedos and cinema even whilst we have struggled enough with sexuality in general.
This argument works well enough for actual child porn. We certainly don’t catch it all but every prosecution takes one more pedo off the streets. The net effect is positive. We don’t catch most car thieves either and nobody suggests we legalize car theft.
No I’m for making it against the law to simulate pedophile shit as the net effect is fewer abused kids than if such images were to be legal. Notably you are free to fantasize about whatever you like its the actual creation and sharing of images that would be illegal. Far from being a minority report hellscape its literally the present way things already are many places.
Lol, how can you say that do confidently? How would you know that with fewer AI CP you get less abused kids? And what is the logic behind it?
Demand doesn’t really drop if something is illegal (same goes for drugs). The only thing you reduce is offering, which just resulting in making the thing that got illegal more valuable (this wakes attention of shady money grabbers that hate regulation / give a shit about law enforcement and therefore do illegal stuff to get money) and that you have to pay a shitton of government money maintaining all the prisons.
Basically every pedo in prison is one who isn’t abusing kids. Every pedo on a list is one who won’t be left alone with a young family member. Actually reducing AI CP doesn’t actually by itself do anything.
Good arguments. I think I am convinced that both cases should be illegal.
If the pictures are real they probably increase demand, which is harmful. If the person knew, then the action therefore should result in jail and forced therapy.
If the pictures are not, forced therapy is probably the best option.
So I guess it being illegal in most cases simply to force therapy is the way to go. Even if it in one case is “victimless”. If they don’t manage to plausibly seem rehabilitated by professionals, then jail time for them.
I would assume (but don’t really know) most pedophiles don’t truly want to act on it, and don’t want to have those urges. And would voluntarily go to therapy.
Which is why I am convinced prevention is the way to go. Not sacrificing privacy. In Norway we have anonymous ways for pedophiles to seek help. There have been posters and ads for it a lot of places a year back or something. I have not researched how it works in practice though.
Edit: I don’t think the therapy we have in Norway is conversion therapy. It’s about minimizing risk and helping deal with the underlying causes, medication, childhood trauma etc. I am not necessarily convinced that conversion therapy works.
Therapy is well and good and I think we need far more avenues available for people to get help (for all issues). That said, sexuality and attraction are complicated.
Let me start by saying I am not trying to state there is a 1:1 equivalence, this is just a comparison, but we have long abandoned conversion therapy for homosexuals, because we’ve found these preferences are core to them and not easily overwritten. The same is true for me as a straight person, I don’t think therapy would help me find men attractive. I have to imagine the same is true for pedophiles.
The question is, if AI can produce pornography that can satisfy the urges of someone with pedophilia without harming any minors, is that a net positive? Remember the attraction is not the crime, it’s the actions that harm others that are. Therapy should always be on the table.
This is a tricky subject because we don’t want to become thought police, so all our laws are built in that manner. However there are big exceptions for sexual crimes due to the gravity of their impact on society. It’s very hard to “stand up” for pedophilia because if acted upon it has monstrous effects, but AI is making us open this can of worms that I don’t belive we ever really thought through besides criminalizing and demonizing (which could be argued was the correct approach with the technology at the time).
I really don’t know enough about the subject or how that therapy works. I doubt that it is conversion therapy, but Ii really don’t know. I would assume it’s handling childhood trauma, medications etc.
Both therapy and if satisfying urges through AI generated content, is both something that should be answered scientifically. If there is research then that should be the basis for what decisions is taken, if there is a lack of research then more research should be the next step.
This is true, but it really depends how “therapy” is defined. And forced therapy could mean anything from things like the old conversion therapy approach for gay people.
You might argue that these days we wouldn’t do anything so barbaric, but considering that the nature of a pedophile’s is very unsavory, and the fact that it will never be acceptable, unlike homosexuality, people would be far more willing to abuse or exploit said “therapy”