No modern Cryonics facility fits this description. They all have perpetual funds, take no energy as it’s liquid nitrogen and not electricity doing the cooling, and I’ve never heard of any “forgetting” to refill. Source? Actually forget it you just wrote complete bullshit lol.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive and the heat transfer is tiny because dewars are closer to a vacuum and liquid nitrogen is cheap. A human bicycle per person could power most Cryonics facilities indefinitely (yes they do have these on site). They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. Nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how they operate and is just a big misinformation circle jerk unfortunately with dozens of upvotes.
No, I’m not trying to convince anyone “it works!”, literally combatting egregious misinformation including your strawman.
I do not believe that entropy acts in reverse, but I am also highly qualified to understand that statement, I’m going to say top 1% or higher. I wouldn’t usually say it but you questioned my comprehension and I answered it with a (mostly) straight face too.
Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. Nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how they operate and is just a big misinformation circle jerk unfortunately with dozens of upvotes.
aaaah but you are an expert it seems? where did your expertise come from? genuine query.
A human bicycle could power most Cryonics facilities indefinitely (yes they do have these on site).
The liquid nitrogen requirements in a dewar would be about 100W per person, which is within range of a human bike generator. https://cryonics.org/members/cryostats-for-cryogenic-storage/. There’s also pumping the vacuum, it’s within range as well. I edited my statement to say “bike per patient”, I guess you could have interpreted it as “bike per facility”. Alcor mentioned having them “just in case” but it was a while back when they had fewer members and I guess they took down most of their website. I think this is more to make a point, can’t imagine anyone doing that realistically, maybe it makes their loved ones feel better. But if it makes a strawman easier, sure, you can interpret my statement as “people will live forever because bicycle” and say “you don’t understand thermodynamics!!!”. Checkmate.
Source: I am able to read, google and do basic math. Not sure where you read “expert” but that makes me qualified to make this statement, as would be many 6th graders. I’m also good at reflecting sarcasm, aaaah.
The website (google) says (reading) $100/yr, assuming electricity costs $12 cents/kwh and the conversion is efficient, that’s 100 / 0.12 * 1000 / 365 / 24 = 100W (basic math). Evidence: uh, lmgtfy, eyeballs, pemdas?
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago.
Curious to know your background in thermodynamics, my education puts me in a good place, maybe top 1% for the “laws of thermodynamics” specifically.
Now I don’t question your ability to understand thermodynamics. But I am super curious what your reading comprehension scores were in school? There are always areas we can continue to improve, you know.
You know nitrogen isnt just ‘magic cold goo’ in its liquid phase, right?
Who am i kidding; of course you don’t!
Edit: love all these kurzwel-landian-assed ‘science nerds’ who read one SciFi novel in the 90s and think theyre science-knower intellectuals, but don’t understand thermodynamics 101 or the refrigeration cycle or other basic shit they should have learned in high school.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s much cheaper than you would think. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. There is no magic and it’s very unlikely to work but not 0. I would guess 1%.
I’m actually struggling to understand where you got the word “magic” from my description. It’s possible my advanced physics training caused me to abbreviate things that are foundational, like entropy, heat exchange rates of a vacuum (e.g. observed in a Dewar). Are you interpreting something specific I said as incompetence or simply aggressively cherry picking my argument because of your own?
Most cryonicists are quite educated, but they are also fucking nuts so I won’t argue that one lol.
The screenshot with no link? Well anyways I did, I wish I could have my time back. It’s a strawman pointing to 50 years ago. There are many good arguments and this one is just not. ChatGPT could have done a better job.
Usually I’m into data hoarding but let’s say, this article isn’t worth it’s space to archive even as compressed text lol. There’s more intellectual content on a cereal box.
What? Do you have any idea how liquid nitrogen actually works? No matter how well insulated the storage is, it is still constantly picking up ambient heat which means you need to keep supplying it with liquid nitrogen as it boils off to disapate said heat. Any big facility is going to make their own liquid nitrogen onsite because of the quantities they require. Making liquid nitrogen requires a lot of electricity. Liquid nitrogen is also expensive to store a lot of because it has no liquid state at ambient temp. That means you need refrigerated and pressurized dewars which basically nobody does, or you just fill up big insulated dewars with no active cooling and let the nitrogen perpetually boil.
If one of those facilities loses electricity then it stops making liquid nitrogen and the liquid nitrogen level in the storage tanks will begin to drop. Because of the costs associated with storing large quantities of liquid nitrogen they aren’t going to store enough to last a prolonged outage. When I worked in an electronics plant our bulk tank of liquid nitrogen got filled weekly by a tanker truck and we didn’t even use a fraction of the liquid nitrogen that one of these cryo facilities uses.
And that’s not even talking about that fact that long term cryo preservation of large creatures like humans is complete bunk.
I’ll start with the complete bunk part. Yes, you are correct, it is unscientific. No argument there. But not really “bunk” as most cryonicists place the odds of working at 1%. Bunk implies a positive claim, that’s not very positive.
All modern Cryonics facilities use expensive pressurized dewars. Your statement is so egregiously wrong and foundational I can discard the rest. If you had a test on Cryonics facilities your grade would be an F, not a D-. Sorry. We could not agree on any further point but here’s a bit for you to read into.
Modern cryonics facilities are not large enough to need much liquid nitrogen, can you quote specific amounts in gallons per week? No, you can’t, because you totally made that sentence up or your company used less than a gallon a year. The liquid nitrogen required is cheap and miniscule and it’s covered by a perpetual fund. It’s actually small compared to other upfront costs. Perpetual funds are how the Getty Museum and Benjamin Franklin’s will operate, they have been around for hundreds of years. It’s small enough for a human powered bicycle generator to generate for a single patient (those are onsite but never used before).
It’s certainly possible for an outage but modern Cryonics facilities have seen one in decades. Can you cite proof of your statement of such a failure in the last 30 years? Probably not as it’s not true.
No modern Cryonics facility fits this description. They all have perpetual funds, take no energy as it’s liquid nitrogen and not electricity doing the cooling, and I’ve never heard of any “forgetting” to refill. Source? Actually forget it you just wrote complete bullshit lol.
that’s not how thermodynamics work. do you think a cryogenic liquid stays at cryogenic temps by itself? even in a storage dewar there’s heat transfer.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive and the heat transfer is tiny because dewars are closer to a vacuum and liquid nitrogen is cheap. A human bicycle per person could power most Cryonics facilities indefinitely (yes they do have these on site). They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. Nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how they operate and is just a big misinformation circle jerk unfortunately with dozens of upvotes.
No, I’m not trying to convince anyone “it works!”, literally combatting egregious misinformation including your strawman.
I do not believe that entropy acts in reverse, but I am also highly qualified to understand that statement, I’m going to say top 1% or higher. I wouldn’t usually say it but you questioned my comprehension and I answered it with a (mostly) straight face too.
aaaah but you are an expert it seems? where did your expertise come from? genuine query.
would love to see evidence of this.
The liquid nitrogen requirements in a dewar would be about 100W per person, which is within range of a human bike generator. https://cryonics.org/members/cryostats-for-cryogenic-storage/. There’s also pumping the vacuum, it’s within range as well. I edited my statement to say “bike per patient”, I guess you could have interpreted it as “bike per facility”. Alcor mentioned having them “just in case” but it was a while back when they had fewer members and I guess they took down most of their website. I think this is more to make a point, can’t imagine anyone doing that realistically, maybe it makes their loved ones feel better. But if it makes a strawman easier, sure, you can interpret my statement as “people will live forever because bicycle” and say “you don’t understand thermodynamics!!!”. Checkmate.
Source: I am able to read, google and do basic math. Not sure where you read “expert” but that makes me qualified to make this statement, as would be many 6th graders. I’m also good at reflecting sarcasm, aaaah.
The website (google) says (reading) $100/yr, assuming electricity costs $12 cents/kwh and the conversion is efficient, that’s 100 / 0.12 * 1000 / 365 / 24 = 100W (basic math). Evidence: uh, lmgtfy, eyeballs, pemdas?
Do you think you’re reading a serious comment?
I never underestimate the ignorance of my fellow man.
Me either
sure thing bike powered cryoguy lol
Still don’t understand your point, if any
this is obvious. you just do not get it, at all. still waiting to see that bike.
The liquid nitrogen requirements in a dewar would be about 100W per person, which is within range of a human bike generator.
https://cryonics.org/members/cryostats-for-cryogenic-storage/
Yes
No energy? Do you understand the laws of thermodynamics?
No, they understand the future, which is better. .ayve get on board, stupid Luddite.
They’re taking a crapshoot chance more likely.
I’ll place my entire life’s savings on them not
Probably a good bet. Cryonicists place the chance of success at ~1% usually.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago.
Curious to know your background in thermodynamics, my education puts me in a good place, maybe top 1% for the “laws of thermodynamics” specifically.
Now I don’t question your ability to understand thermodynamics. But I am super curious what your reading comprehension scores were in school? There are always areas we can continue to improve, you know.
You know nitrogen isnt just ‘magic cold goo’ in its liquid phase, right?
Who am i kidding; of course you don’t!
Edit: love all these kurzwel-landian-assed ‘science nerds’ who read one SciFi novel in the 90s and think theyre science-knower intellectuals, but don’t understand thermodynamics 101 or the refrigeration cycle or other basic shit they should have learned in high school.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s much cheaper than you would think. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. There is no magic and it’s very unlikely to work but not 0. I would guess 1%.
I’m actually struggling to understand where you got the word “magic” from my description. It’s possible my advanced physics training caused me to abbreviate things that are foundational, like entropy, heat exchange rates of a vacuum (e.g. observed in a Dewar). Are you interpreting something specific I said as incompetence or simply aggressively cherry picking my argument because of your own?
Most cryonicists are quite educated, but they are also fucking nuts so I won’t argue that one lol.
I take it you didn’t bother to read the article.
The screenshot with no link? Well anyways I did, I wish I could have my time back. It’s a strawman pointing to 50 years ago. There are many good arguments and this one is just not. ChatGPT could have done a better job.
Usually I’m into data hoarding but let’s say, this article isn’t worth it’s space to archive even as compressed text lol. There’s more intellectual content on a cereal box.
What? Do you have any idea how liquid nitrogen actually works? No matter how well insulated the storage is, it is still constantly picking up ambient heat which means you need to keep supplying it with liquid nitrogen as it boils off to disapate said heat. Any big facility is going to make their own liquid nitrogen onsite because of the quantities they require. Making liquid nitrogen requires a lot of electricity. Liquid nitrogen is also expensive to store a lot of because it has no liquid state at ambient temp. That means you need refrigerated and pressurized dewars which basically nobody does, or you just fill up big insulated dewars with no active cooling and let the nitrogen perpetually boil.
If one of those facilities loses electricity then it stops making liquid nitrogen and the liquid nitrogen level in the storage tanks will begin to drop. Because of the costs associated with storing large quantities of liquid nitrogen they aren’t going to store enough to last a prolonged outage. When I worked in an electronics plant our bulk tank of liquid nitrogen got filled weekly by a tanker truck and we didn’t even use a fraction of the liquid nitrogen that one of these cryo facilities uses.
And that’s not even talking about that fact that long term cryo preservation of large creatures like humans is complete bunk.
I’ll start with the complete bunk part. Yes, you are correct, it is unscientific. No argument there. But not really “bunk” as most cryonicists place the odds of working at 1%. Bunk implies a positive claim, that’s not very positive.
All modern Cryonics facilities use expensive pressurized dewars. Your statement is so egregiously wrong and foundational I can discard the rest. If you had a test on Cryonics facilities your grade would be an F, not a D-. Sorry. We could not agree on any further point but here’s a bit for you to read into.
Modern cryonics facilities are not large enough to need much liquid nitrogen, can you quote specific amounts in gallons per week? No, you can’t, because you totally made that sentence up or your company used less than a gallon a year. The liquid nitrogen required is cheap and miniscule and it’s covered by a perpetual fund. It’s actually small compared to other upfront costs. Perpetual funds are how the Getty Museum and Benjamin Franklin’s will operate, they have been around for hundreds of years. It’s small enough for a human powered bicycle generator to generate for a single patient (those are onsite but never used before).
It’s certainly possible for an outage but modern Cryonics facilities have seen one in decades. Can you cite proof of your statement of such a failure in the last 30 years? Probably not as it’s not true.
People who pay for cryogenic storage are simps and suckers.
Now that one I won’t argue against lol