In Episodes IV-VI, I think the Empire was portrayed as bad mainly due to their execution of power.
I think the Empire’s ideals of order and stability don’t seem so bad in theory. Even the Mandolorian TV show (which was set around that time) supports this perspective.
You think so? What about the Empire do you think was portrayed as good in Episode IV-VI?
In Episode IV-VI, the Empire is a classic evil-only organization. Nothing about them is portrayed in any way as good. The execution of power, the domination of the population. Destroying whole planets just as an interrogation tactic. Randomly murdering people all over.
Order and stability aren’t even on their list of goals at all. If you lived on Alderaan or Cloud City, would you say that you are getting order and stability? You mind your business, follow the laws, are a good citizen and suddenly your planet gets blown up together with everyone you love, just because some high-ranking military leader can’t get the answer they like from some high-ranking politician. Nothing about that is order and stability.
Same story for Aunt May and Uncle Owen. They did nothing wrong. They didn’t fight the empire, they weren’t rebellious. They got killed just because, for no actual reason. What’s order and stability about that?
The only ideals the Empire has is that the dictator and the military are dominating everyone else, they can do whatever they want and will not face any consequences for anything.
They were meant as a literal representation of the Nazis but in space, and I think they hit that portrayal quite well. Same as their real-life model, the Empire is not about order and stability at all. They use terms like that, but it’s not what they are actually about.
Just like the nazis tried to end destructive conflict and bring order to the world.
Not.
Order and stability means rule of law: Everyone knows the rules and if you follow them you will be safe. Stability is predictability.
Both the empire and the nazis went completely against that, purposely. The “order” they want to bring is “I am king and you are nothing”. It means if you are higher up you can do whatever you want without any consequences at all.
The result of that is that there is no order and stability for the common people, and not even for the higher ups that aren’t on the top of the food chain. The Führer just needs to have a bad day and suddenly the’s going to force choke you to death.
Nazis (and also the empire) use double speak extensively. They say “order and stability” but mean "fear and insecurity.
Remember, they are the ones who put “Arbeit macht frei” (“work makes free”) on top of the entrance to the concentration camps that were death camps camouflaged as labour camps. The only freedom these camps brought was death.
That’s a good way of looking at it. The Galactic Empire was definitely reminiscent of a certain 1940s regime. But don’t forget:
Many characters (especially in the spinoff shows) preferred the Empire because the republic was a bit of a shit show. War and chaos was everywhere, and the senate was gridlocked. Nothing got done because of endless debates.
The Empire also secured trade routes, improved infrastructure, and lowered crime rates (at first).
The rebels, on the other hand were terrorists. Blowing up military installations, raiding imperial supply lines, and assaulting officials. To people who weren’t suffering under the empire, the rebels looked like dangerous extremists.
The spinoffs do a great job at demonstrating how people internalise propaganda.
“I’m iust savin’, somewhere someone in this galaxy is ruling and others are being ruled. I mean, look at your race. Do you think all those people that died in wars fought by Mandalorians actually had a choice? So how are they any different than the Empire? If you were born on Mandalore, you believe one thing, if you’re born on Alderaan, ou believe somethin else.” - Migs Mayfeld.
True, the spinoffs do show a lot of that, but that’s getting away from the original Episode IV-VI argument.
Even Episode I-III already showed a bit more of what lead to the downfall of the republic.
When you look at real-life Germany or Austria leading up to the Nazis you had quite similar situations: instable democracies in permanent crisis mode that were gridlocked and finally replaced by fascist regimes.
What’s the big difference though between the lead-up to the nazis and to the empire is the government that came before.
Both Germany and Austria were (financially) destroyed after WW1. Democracy was very new in both countries, only 15 years at the time when the nazis/austrofascists took over. The democratic systems of these two countries were full of holes and weaknesses. Political extremism was very strong while the political center was weak.
The extremist parties has their own paramilitary forces that ended up being stronger than the official forces of the state, and when the great depression hit and destroyed the livelihood of most people, protest votes pushed the fascists into power.
So the main issues were young, instable democratic systems, voters inexperienced with democracy who knew no precedence of democracy collapsing, combined with a massive economic crash.
The Empire on the other hand got into power from a completely different precondition. The Galactic Republic had existed for millenia. It was mature beyond belief. It was financially stable, there was no major crisis apart from politics being a little slow. It was just some trade dispute that escalated into full secession, because apparently there has never been a trade war or a separatist movement over the last millenia in a republic that spanned most of the galaxis.
This is where Lucas’ US bias shines through. Episode I-III are a case study of what if the US Civil War happened in the 1990s USA, but for no actual reason and then everyone missed that their beloved moderate head of state was secretly Hitler all along.
Here the historical analogy breaks down and it shows that Lucas is primarily an action film maker and not a history scholar.
Trade wars usually don’t escalate into real wars because the goal of trade wars is to get more advantageous trade while real wars destroy trade.
The motivations of the trade federation and the separatists are never explained beyond “the world jewish conspiracy wants more power right now”.
Because it’s mostly an action movie and everything beyond that is just sprinkles on top to justify light saber duels and space fighter dogfights.
In Episodes IV-VI, I think the Empire was portrayed as bad mainly due to their execution of power.
I think the Empire’s ideals of order and stability don’t seem so bad in theory. Even the Mandolorian TV show (which was set around that time) supports this perspective.
You think so? What about the Empire do you think was portrayed as good in Episode IV-VI?
In Episode IV-VI, the Empire is a classic evil-only organization. Nothing about them is portrayed in any way as good. The execution of power, the domination of the population. Destroying whole planets just as an interrogation tactic. Randomly murdering people all over.
Order and stability aren’t even on their list of goals at all. If you lived on Alderaan or Cloud City, would you say that you are getting order and stability? You mind your business, follow the laws, are a good citizen and suddenly your planet gets blown up together with everyone you love, just because some high-ranking military leader can’t get the answer they like from some high-ranking politician. Nothing about that is order and stability.
Same story for Aunt May and Uncle Owen. They did nothing wrong. They didn’t fight the empire, they weren’t rebellious. They got killed just because, for no actual reason. What’s order and stability about that?
The only ideals the Empire has is that the dictator and the military are dominating everyone else, they can do whatever they want and will not face any consequences for anything.
They were meant as a literal representation of the Nazis but in space, and I think they hit that portrayal quite well. Same as their real-life model, the Empire is not about order and stability at all. They use terms like that, but it’s not what they are actually about.
I never said they were “good”. I said there is good and bad on both sides.
The Galactic Empire was based on Nazi Germany. The name “Stormtrooper” literally comes from the German Imperial Army.
My point is that the Empire’s goal is order and stability through domination. Darth Vader even said to Luke in Episode V:
“Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.”
Just like the nazis tried to end destructive conflict and bring order to the world.
Not.
Order and stability means rule of law: Everyone knows the rules and if you follow them you will be safe. Stability is predictability.
Both the empire and the nazis went completely against that, purposely. The “order” they want to bring is “I am king and you are nothing”. It means if you are higher up you can do whatever you want without any consequences at all.
The result of that is that there is no order and stability for the common people, and not even for the higher ups that aren’t on the top of the food chain. The Führer just needs to have a bad day and suddenly the’s going to force choke you to death.
Nazis (and also the empire) use double speak extensively. They say “order and stability” but mean "fear and insecurity.
Remember, they are the ones who put “Arbeit macht frei” (“work makes free”) on top of the entrance to the concentration camps that were death camps camouflaged as labour camps. The only freedom these camps brought was death.
That’s a good way of looking at it. The Galactic Empire was definitely reminiscent of a certain 1940s regime. But don’t forget:
Many characters (especially in the spinoff shows) preferred the Empire because the republic was a bit of a shit show. War and chaos was everywhere, and the senate was gridlocked. Nothing got done because of endless debates.
The Empire also secured trade routes, improved infrastructure, and lowered crime rates (at first).
The rebels, on the other hand were terrorists. Blowing up military installations, raiding imperial supply lines, and assaulting officials. To people who weren’t suffering under the empire, the rebels looked like dangerous extremists.
The spinoffs do a great job at demonstrating how people internalise propaganda.
“I’m iust savin’, somewhere someone in this galaxy is ruling and others are being ruled. I mean, look at your race. Do you think all those people that died in wars fought by Mandalorians actually had a choice? So how are they any different than the Empire? If you were born on Mandalore, you believe one thing, if you’re born on Alderaan, ou believe somethin else.” - Migs Mayfeld.
True, the spinoffs do show a lot of that, but that’s getting away from the original Episode IV-VI argument.
Even Episode I-III already showed a bit more of what lead to the downfall of the republic.
When you look at real-life Germany or Austria leading up to the Nazis you had quite similar situations: instable democracies in permanent crisis mode that were gridlocked and finally replaced by fascist regimes.
What’s the big difference though between the lead-up to the nazis and to the empire is the government that came before.
Both Germany and Austria were (financially) destroyed after WW1. Democracy was very new in both countries, only 15 years at the time when the nazis/austrofascists took over. The democratic systems of these two countries were full of holes and weaknesses. Political extremism was very strong while the political center was weak.
The extremist parties has their own paramilitary forces that ended up being stronger than the official forces of the state, and when the great depression hit and destroyed the livelihood of most people, protest votes pushed the fascists into power.
So the main issues were young, instable democratic systems, voters inexperienced with democracy who knew no precedence of democracy collapsing, combined with a massive economic crash.
The Empire on the other hand got into power from a completely different precondition. The Galactic Republic had existed for millenia. It was mature beyond belief. It was financially stable, there was no major crisis apart from politics being a little slow. It was just some trade dispute that escalated into full secession, because apparently there has never been a trade war or a separatist movement over the last millenia in a republic that spanned most of the galaxis.
This is where Lucas’ US bias shines through. Episode I-III are a case study of what if the US Civil War happened in the 1990s USA, but for no actual reason and then everyone missed that their beloved moderate head of state was secretly Hitler all along.
Here the historical analogy breaks down and it shows that Lucas is primarily an action film maker and not a history scholar.
Trade wars usually don’t escalate into real wars because the goal of trade wars is to get more advantageous trade while real wars destroy trade.
The motivations of the trade federation and the separatists are never explained beyond “the world jewish conspiracy wants more power right now”.
Because it’s mostly an action movie and everything beyond that is just sprinkles on top to justify light saber duels and space fighter dogfights.
The virtue of stability is entirely dependent on the virtue of the system you are stabilizing.