the tankies are so mad that “Genocide Kamala” just doesn’t have the same ring to it lol
Haven’t you noticed? They don’t give a shit about genocide anymore. They switched to “oLd!” After the debate.
Now they have nothing. It’s why they’re so quiet.
I give it three days tops before they figure out they can use the “ACAB, she’s a prosecutor so she’s actually a cop” angle as a replacement
Oh, I’ve already seen it on lemmy. Pretty soon you’ll see Cop Kamala posts all over the plac
Copmala
Paul Blart: Kamalla Cop
Pretty wild that these leftists consistently have leftist criticisms of the liberal candidate, I guess that means they support the conservative candidate.
Called it.
Why do you want a discourse where the blue candidate can’t be criticized just because the red candidate is worse?
Cause I don’t want trans people or west bank Palestinians to die!
Good one! Had to remove my downvote when I realised what that place is.
I mean that’s been talked about for years already dude
The more I learn about her the more relaxed I feel about her as president tbh. I’m kinda surprised how little the trolls have come up with, you’d think there would be a bigger pile of shit for them to fling given the hard-on for getting Biden out of the race. It’s almost encouraging in a weird sort of way.
She’s sure coming out of the gate swinging, harder than they expected and they didn’t have any racism loaded in the chamber. Exactly what we fucking needed.
Yeah that attack already got shat upon so the GRU are weighing other attack options for tankies to perform.
Oooh. That’s a good one.
This is an example of the pathetic one I’ve seen so far.
Ahhh classic linkerbaan
It’s why they’re so quiet.
I mean I can criticize Kamala more if that’s what you like.
It literally doesn’t matter what we do or don’t do, liberals will always find a way to attack the left. You can set your clock by it.
No one hates leftists more than other leftists
almost true, liberals hate leftists more, and fascists hate leftists most of all.
They’re not criticizing her enough! They’re criticizing her too much! Their consistent leftist beliefs unsurprisingly still have some valid criticisms of her from their point of view and they’re expressing them! We have to stop them from expressing them! We have to prevent any criticism of Democrats! VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO!
These are blue-shifted bandage-on-the-ear rabids who are not interested in political discourse and want to silence progressive voices. They would rather fight straw men than build any sort of complex political thought or class consciousness.
Oh the hypocrisy is delicious! Thanks for that!
I think you need to look up what that word means.
This page is nothing but a bunch of insecure fragile liberals fighting straw men. Are you so worried about valid and consistent leftist criticisms of your liberal candidate that you would prefer to silence all oppression? You’re the idiots with bandages on your ears but with a blue hat instead.
Why is it shocking that genuine leftists (who also hate Trump) would have leftist-perspective criticisms of Kamala Harris too? Should everyone left of center be completely silenced? Is the Democrat candidate so weak and fragile that leftist criticisms will take her down?
This is nothing but tribal liberals trying to shut down progressive discourse.
You’re all shockingly cultist. Holy shit this place is a disaster.
Lemmy.world in general is terrible for things like this, I would suggest joining a more niche instance or a different generalist instance if liberalism bothers you.
Liberalism is an ideology that can be debated and has merits, these are just cultists. I don’t think so little of liberals that I think they’re all like this.
This is just the politics subreddit isn’t it?
Liberalism is an ideology that can be debated and has merits, these are just cultists. I don’t think so little of liberals that I think they’re all like this.
Yes and no. Lemmy.world specifically curates this form of liberalism, they have an anti-Marxist stance and as such left-punchers flocked to Lemmy.world. Non-left-punchers generally leave Lemmy.world.
This is just the politics subreddit isn’t it?
In my experience, no, not really. Some smaller, niche communities are good, but overall Lemmy.world has curated its own userbase.
Thanks for giving me the lay of the land. I can’t imagine being so fanatically, what amounts to, centrist…
No problem! I recommend checking out other instances and scrolling by local feeds, to find one you like the vibe of. Lemmy.world blocks a few instances you could be interested in, or might not be, but scrolling by local anonymously is a good tip I’ve found.
The folks at .ml would love you over there.
Aaah. The smug arrogance of a socialist. How adorable!
and yes many liberals are insufferable, but I stand by my original statement even when such examples love to make themselves known.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t take someone who subscribes to an untested and provenly ineffective political system seriously I hope.
Every few years this shit rehashes as if we’ve forgotten how fucking embarrassing it was the last time.
You want to replace our socioeconomic and political system with something better? Be my guest-
But offer something better. Marxism is utter garbage.
fragile liberals fighting straw men
You’re the idiots with bandages on your ears but with a blue hat instead.
So calling anyone that’s liberal but not leftist a blue MAGA isn’t a straw man? It’s intentionally inflammatory and wrong. It sounds like you’re being elitist, even if that’s not your intention.
I agree that the average US liberal isn’t progressive enough and I don’t agree with a lot of the liberal circlejerk in these comments, but your argument is just as flawed and cultist.
So calling anyone that’s liberal but not leftist a blue MAGA isn’t a straw man?
No liberal is a leftist, liberalism is right-wing, while leftism is Socialist, of some sort. Additionally, the person you replied to said liberalism itself can be debated, but this specific anti-Leftist liberalism found on Lemmy.world is “Blue MAGA,” ie Leftists aren’t allowed to complain about whatever right-winger the DNC fronts.
It’s intentionally inflammatory and wrong. It sounds like you’re being elitist, even if that’s not your intention.
I don’t see how any of that follows.
I agree that the average US liberal isn’t progressive enough and I don’t agree with a lot of the liberal circlejerk in these comments, but your argument is just as flawed and cultist.
So you agree with them saying leftists should be allowed to have a voice, but disagree with them saying Lemmy.world liberals are trying to silence Leftists, then “both-sidesing” them? Not sure what you’re cooking here.
No liberal is a leftist, liberalism is right-wing
What in the actual fuck are you talking about?
Leftism is Socialist, ie collective ownership of the Means of Production. Rightism is Capitalist, ie individual ownership of the Means of Production.
Liberalism supports Capitalism, ie current system + tweaks, ergo it is right-wing.
No liberal is a leftist, liberalism is right-wing, while leftism is Socialist
That’s factually not correct though. I understand and agree there is a difference between leftist and liberal, but the rest is just blatantly wrong.
Here’s a history lesson on left and right wing;
https://www.history.com/news/how-did-the-political-labels-left-wing-and-right-wing-originate
Left means progressive, right means traditional. Liberals are progressive and left leaning. Less so in the US, but still not right wing.
Your comment is excluding specific progressives and mislabeling them because they’re not as progressive as you. That’s what I mean by elitist.
Additionally, no one here is silencing anyone, unless you can pull up some proof that a liberal mod is deleting leftist comments in this thread for being leftist. Everything in these comments is just discussion.
Also, I agree. There are some specify anti-leftist liberal comments here and on Lemmy. That is frustrating and my comments aren’t meant to support that, just to point out the hypocrisy I saw. Almost everyone here is anti-fascist and anti-maga, we can be a bit more civil in our disagreements
That’s factually not correct though. I understand and agree there is a difference between leftist and liberal, but the rest is just blatantly wrong.
It is not “blatantly wrong.”
Here’s a history lesson on left and right wing;
https://www.history.com/news/how-did-the-political-labels-left-wing-and-right-wing-originate
I’m aware.
Left means progressive, right means traditional.
Broadly, yes.
Liberals are progressive and left leaning. Less so in the US, but still not right wing.
Incorrect, entirely. Liberalism is the status quo, ergo it cannot be considered left. Liberalism supports Capitalism and is a right-wing ideology, to be left is to go against that status quo.
Your comment is excluding specific progressives and mislabeling them because they’re not as progressive as you. That’s what I mean by elitist.
I’m not being “elitist,” I am pointing out that Liberalism is not progressive, it’s the status quo. I myself am a Marxist, and believe leftism to be correct, but not elite.
Additionally, no one here is silencing anyone, unless you can pull up some proof that a liberal mod is deleting leftist comments in this thread for being leftist. Everything in these comments is just discussion.
In Lemmy.world’s modlog, you can find comments and posts removed for being “commie,” and Lemmy.world defederates from explicitly Marxist instances.
Also, I agree. There are some specify anti-leftist liberal comments here and on Lemmy. That is frustrating and my comments aren’t meant to support that, just to point out the hypocrisy I saw. Almost everyone here is anti-fascist and anti-maga, we can be a bit more civil in our disagreements
It’s usally confined to right-leaning instances like Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works.
You’re generalizing what I said, you can see plainly that I was referring to the people behaving like that in this thread.
This is the depth of analysis I’ve come to expect from you all, though.
you all
I’m literally a leftist -_-
I just disagree with arguing and insulting anyone who is a bit less progressive than me. I prefer to not see the world as black and white
that’s a fair point, granted. I’m also generalizing and it seems this thread is evolving somewhat but the first dozen comment threads here were liberals taking swings at straw men and that’s a pattern I’ve seen in every thread.
not all liberals are like this but this community is staggeringly cult-like and paranoid.
oh NOW suddenly and always the leftists have critiques of liberals even though the one who couldn’t win was replaced by one who could hopefully win, their consistent ideology can only mean they’re Russian agents
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“Carnage Karmala” is the best I could come up with and it’s way too metal tbh
She also has been more critical of Israel and isn’t in the hot seat. Unless she goes and hugs Bibi she can ride below the issue.
“Hasbara Harris “ doesn’t work for you? /s
I do have a really good reason not to vote for Kamala Harris.
I’m not American and sneaking into your country to vote would be kind of difficult I guess. But please those who can, vote, orange man is a danger for all the world.
Yeah, this is my parents. They would literally rather not vote, than to vote for a Demoncrat… 🙄
I’ll be sure to thank them for their unbending morals when I get put in a concentration camp.
I’ll be right there with you 🏳️🌈
At best these tankies are accelerationaists, at worst they are brats who HAVE to get exactly their way or they’re not playing.
I think it’s even worse than that, I think there are paid campaigns by foreign dictatorships who want the western world to off themselves and each other.
Not to say every one of them is a paid troll or actor, far from it, the rest of them are just lambs to slaughter.
Or maybe the leftists are disenfranchised by a first past the post system that doesn’t represent them, does not care to compromise to get their support, nor will adopt any part of their platform and instead continues moving the the right becoming the “law and order” party until the only perceived choice left is to withhold electoral support until policy demands are met?
Nah they’re just brats and demand representation instead of shutting up and giving total devotion to whoever the DNC chooses for them like the rest of the saviors of democracy who vote blue no matter who.
Sincerely, still undecided
Sure, fine.
Let’s do it in a year that fascism isn’t legit in play, ok?
No?
Fine, blocked.
Fascism is in play every year. This is the same tired lib excuse to avoid the issue entirely. Its always going to be taboo to talk about it during the only time libs pay attention.
“Out trump and move them left later”
Cool so we can overhaul the election system so the two parties can’t move the goalposts every time someone gets close, and overhaul the DNC into an organization beholden to its voters so every road to doing that ISN’T blocked off?
crickets “…TANKIE!”
I seem to remember that first part happening in 2020, but instead of moving left now they’re crossing their fingers that top cop prosecutor mommy picks conservative astronaut daddy to lock up fascism once and for all
disenfranchised by a first past the post system that doesn’t represent them, does not care to compromise to get their support, nor will adopt any part of their platform and instead continues moving the the right becoming the “law and order” party until the only perceived choice left is to withhold electoral support until policy demands are met?
This is me but am not raging dick of a leftists. Why come?
Dont know you well enough to speculate im afraid. Challenging indoctrinated belief systems and asking the status quo to justify itself is what did it for me.
I can tell you but you don’t want to hear it.
The path foward is never clear. Incremental change is the only thing that will get us where we want to be with out losing anything on the way. Set backs are to be expected. We are fighting for the next generation and the generation after that. Status quo is probably the best you’ll ever get. Well, while you’re healthy enough to enjoy it.
Im afraid we have lost quite a bit already by following the status quo. Reproductive rights was a big recent loss you may have heard of.
Alternatively no meaningful change has started at the ballot box, its been direct action and civil disobedience. The system seems to have a slow methodical approach to considering new rights, and removes them on a whim.
Either way what I am saying is, I am not mindlessly supporting the status quo unless the move toward me. They’ve been moving away in a steady March for decades. I lost faith that change would come about through the electoral process during Obamas term and again during the 2016 primary.
If you want to prop up the DNC thats your right, but im not going to do it simply because they arent trump. I can vote PSL again without guilt because I have no real power or choice in the electoral system and thats not my fault.
You’re not listening. You have no vision. For 50 years the GOP fought for the supreme court and they got it. That is not the lefts fault. They used every tool, all the way from building a media empire to solidify their win.
We could fight for something too.
I dont think you’re saying anything at all honestly. Ive been fighting the right and the slightly less right for decades. From occupy to agorism, protests, illegal community support, tenant associations, volunteer work, food banks, so its pretty hasty for you to claim I have no vision while you speak on Jack shit but milquetoast half assed DNC apologism about how the openly fascist are 50 years ahead and you dont even know what to fight for but you’re convinced incremental change is the way.
“Screw you guys, I’m voting for fascism”
Well, they got their way… we’re not voting for Biden. The ball is in their court now. Let’s see if they take it and go home.
Man, a lot of y’all need to make a new tankies.fear instance and take your 6 comment deep circle jerks about how anyone left of Biden is a tankie and they’re so skawwwy with you.
I swear I can barely click on anything without a bunch of top level comments just shrieking “HEXBEAR HEXBEAR TANKIE TANKIE”
But haven’t you heard about the TANKIES?! They’re everywhere*!
According to these geniuses, anyone who isn’t willing to immediately slurp down the United States’ 12 inch propaganda schlong is a tankie. Too much critical thinking? Tankie! Too critical of capitalism or too supportive of anarchism/socialism/communism? Tankie! Noticed how many of the worst tankie whiners have an army of alts? Biggest Winnie the Pooh fucking, ghost of the USSR cuckolded tankie ever.
Most of their circle jerks start with a meme where they make up a strawman about what their imaginary tankies are up to (versus what Lemmy’s actual tankies are really doing), then verbally stroke each other off as they claim anyone who calls them out for being delusional upvote farmers is also a secret tankie.
*when your standard is “anyone I dislike or disagree with is a tankie”.
The CCP and Russian Trolls on Hexbear and ML are not leftist, imo.
Anyone simping for a fascist isn’t a leftist. At most they’re a “leftist”.
Over the last few months it’s become clear to me that Trump is the cudgel with which any leftist discourse is shut down. The ultimate free pass for corporate Democrats.
Welcome to the two party system. If you want to change it’s gonna take a whole lot more than just voting, but if the left can’t even do that then we’re fucking doomed.
Oh no, even when you vote you get cudgeled. No dissent is allowed. Which is frankly disappointing.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. I mostly see people clapping back to tankies blatantly trying to convince leftists not to vote.
Sure, that’s a pretty easy observation when you classify any attempt to hold politicians responsible as “blatantly trying to convince leftists not to vote.”
Most leftists are telling people to vote for Claudia De La Cruz of PSL, not simply abstaining.
The leftist discourse has been clear from the start. The reason the same arguments are being used is because they are still valid issues with the candidate.
I’ve been seeing liberals push this narrative a lot, that “tankies” just keep flip flopping to the next issue.
This is incredible. All I am seeing are the same issues raised over and over that liberals never address. Genuinely, do you not see that you are just being blue MAGA? How do you not see this?
The DNC is completely complicit in the US’ slide into fascism. Liberals just use the same tired debunked arguments and sneers which devolves the discourse into endless shit flinging. Leftists aren’t free of blame either, agitating is a classic pastime of many.
But to see liberals sneering and relishing in this “victory” while marching happily into literal fascism is just incredible.
Look, Kamala will probably win. I’m turning off the shit flinging mode right now and seriously saying something:
If you genuinely and truly don’t see how the path the US is on has been, and will lead, to fascism with a complicit ruling class… Jesus Christ man I don’t even know what to say.
I just don’t want the Sunny d orangutan to put me into a fucking concentration camp. If that makes me blue maga, so be it I guess.
You act like voting is mutually exclusive with all other forms of resistance. Like yeah, obviously voting alone isn’t going to do very much. But just because there’s work to be done outside of the voting booth doesn’t mean we should hand the oval office over to the actual facility on a silver platter.
Elections serve the function of capturing political energy and diverting it away from addressing any real issues. Has it escaped your notice that all candidates are completely subservient to the ruling class?
Every year the concentration of wealth grows. Every day, the USA continues to prop up a genocide. Every year true revolutionaries are quietly murdered, then memory-holed.
I’m personally not saying “don’t vote” - on balance, I think it’s worth exercising that minute degree of autonomy. What I am saying is: “Don’t expect voting to affect real change, when the rolling class has complete control over candidate selection”
Voting alone obviously isn’t enough. It’s the absolute bare minimum.
I can meet you there
So outside of instantaneously and magically destroying the existing power structure and government as it currently exists, what do you propose? How long will it take to implement, and what risks are there in doing it?
The “leftist” arguments I’ve seen so far never mention that.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors. This is a tedious process because of the lack of knowledge the average person has around this topic (otherwise you wouldn’t have had to ask this question). The working class will always have their numbers in their favour, but in order to effectively overthrow the ruling class they need to understand the class relations in place. You can contribute by reading leftist literature on class relations and educating those around you. There are leftist reading groups in basically every city especially for this reason.
To add, reading theory is not enough, just a good start. You should join an org if you have the time and resources to do so, and contribute to building dual power.
Definitely. Most orgs in the West (that I know of) are at the moment focused mostly on education because it’s so lacking in our society
There are some good orgs to join, such as the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for those based in the US. There are also Anarchist orgs like Food Not Bombs that set up networks of Mutual Aid, though their focus is on immediate benefits to the poor and not building up dual power to replace the current system.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors.
Right, right, but - how?
I’m assuming from your spelling of organize that you’re not American? What I mean is - what is the “leftist” plan for America - how would it practically work?
So far all I see is a lot of hand-waving. Yes, yes, and then what? You must know that what you’ve written is just barely outside the realm of theory. How. Will we change our supposed “Democratic march to fascism” exactly? What happens to make that so?
Organising is done through education. Workers must learn exactly in what ways they’re taken advantage of by their bosses and educate others with this knowledge as well. Once enough workers have joined a revolutionary (communist) party because they agree that the oppression of their class must be stopped, they can start their revolution. Workers that work for production companies must take control of the means of the production, workers that work in government agencies must take control over their respective agency. Workers that work in the military must take control of military equipment. The party that organised the revolution already has its own democratic structure that will be used to decide the next courses of action. Once the workers are in control of their workplace they can continue the same work while the party basically takes over the role of the government as long as it’s needed. Through its democratic structure decisions can be made on the order of which the current problems the people face can be addressed.
I’m no expert, so this is a run down of the events during a revolution as I understand it. The course of a revolution varies a lot depending on the class relations so a successful revolution in one country may not look the same in another. As I said, the first step is education and I’m still learning what the class relations look like in my own region, until then I can not exactly say what the revolution here should look like.
In general it should never be a bad idea for a worker to learn about their own company structure and the contradictions that exist within between the workers and the owners and shareholders of said company. This information can first help with unionising, and from it you can derive your negotiating power as a union against your boss. This is helpful in gaining ground on the wage/profit ratio, and later it will be essential for taking control of the company and making sure it keeps running.
Well, thank you for the informational rundown. So far as I can tell the “how” of a “progressive” or “leftist” political change boils down to:
- learn about worker oppression
- join a socialist organization
- seize the means of production / seize weapons
- implement revolution
Is that the right takeaway?
I think I’m going to stick with the American democratic process of voting for leaders, but it sounds interesting if a little undefined.
Join an organization, like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read theory, organize, and build up dual power. You can’t just motion that Leftists aren’t doing what they claim they are and want to, read theory yourself if you want to understand.
I recently finished a biography of Stalin and I gotta say, you sound exactly like Stalin.
I would like to flip this argument on its head. If the right wing is putting up a sufficiently fascist candidate, does that mean you will broker no criticism of the less right wing candidate? They can just keep playing that trick on you forever?
Well, I consider “liberals” and “Democrats” to be pretty clear and on the record as to what changes they would make. They have position papers and - things, if one is so inclined to wonk it up.
But if self-described “progressives” and “leftists” are saying they’re so corrupt, they’re leading us down the road to being locked in an iron coffin with spikes on the inside - well, okay, what’s the “progressive”, “left” road like, then?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
What I expect is either complete silence, or something wildly unlikely. But - open to the idea: what is it, how does it work, what are the risks?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
Here is PSL’s party platform they are campaigning on, as they try to build up a Leftist political party in the US. There are leftist plans and actions we can take.
Increase taxes for the highest bracket. Close tax loopholes. Codify the right to abortion. End military and economic aid to Israel. Increase land value tax. Single payer healthcare. Extend welfare to all disabled people living overseas. Ban child labour. Universal basic income. Put a limit on the number of properties that can be owned by an individual or corporation. Dissolve HOA clauses. Loosen immigration. Increase education spending. Increase legal protection for unions. Place control of all businesses in the hands of the unions and nationalise those businesses lacking unions. Make internet free and connect every home to fiber. Ban new fossil fuel developments. Invest in the local solar and wind industries. Ban animal agriculture. Tighten up laws against online abuse and harassment. Create a new cybercrime investigation force completely unaffiliated with the police. Offer everyone a number of free therapist visits. Make weed and LSD legal.
How does not voting for Kamala Harris accomplish any of those things?
It doesn’t. I’m with Capable Kamala all the way.
Ah, right. I believe the original question in this thread was calling out the tankies who say both candidates are bad and the voting will not accomplish anything to say what the actual plan is, so not aimed at you.
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Progressives and leftists have tons of literature out there on the policies and ideas they want implemented to improve society, just because you haven’t bother to look up any doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As to how that gets implemented again it’s out there but going to depend on what country and topic we’re taking about if you want someone to provide something specific.
More than happy to provide some but given the post was on “leftist discourse” I’m a little unclear on what specific topic you’re unable to find the leftist position for here.
So…you are tacitly admitting that the “lesser of two evils” trick will always work on you?
explain how your political process can flourish
I don’t recall proposing a political process. I’ll engage with the strawman anyway. If I was president of this wretched hellscape, The bare minimum policies to start would be:
Electoral reform, labor reform, UBI, criminal justice reform, tax reform (wealth tax, inheritance tax, national property tax, tax on financial transactions), corporate death penalty, presumptive liability for corporate executives, bring the military and police to heel.
something wildly unlikely
Uhh, sure, it is going to be very difficult to change the power structures in the United States that are entrenched into every facet of life and constantly propagandized through the media. I guess we should just give up and spend all our time fellating the ruling class.
Start here
Bernie Sanders? The Democrat?
Perfect response.
I would just like to add:
I think what the USian liberals on here are missing is perspective. I think they have a worldview where the election is all that matters, so any whiff of dissent MUST mean the “tankies” are out to make the blue team lose.
Liberals, do you really think undecided voters in swing states are making voting decisions based on political threads on Lemmy?
If you truly want to understand instead of just downvote and run, try and mentally transpose this situation onto the British empire 100+ years ago. Sure, there are elections, but the grinding bloodthirsty machine of empire proceeds apace with no regard to the election before or after. Sure, one party is worse, that’s the literal manipulative trap of first past the post.
When we look at this world, there is one nation that has been terrorizing the world for over 70 years. Unless you are very naive, you shouldn’t expect compliant national media to give a balanced portrait of this history.
We’re not going to stop talking about the bloodshed and the empire and the propaganda until it has been burned to the ground. You can join the media and intelligence services, and do everything in your power to silence us - or you could consider that perhaps our positions are principled. Perhaps we once believed just like you did, so we see how close you are to piercing the veil of deception.
Or we are all literally paid shills and you don’t have to change any of your beliefs because the United States is a beacon of freedom and justice to the whole world…
