For those who are not clued into the intricacies of turkish (ethno-)nationalism, turanism is kind of like the odin-flavored racism in germany. They hate arabs so much they reject Islam (which is otherwise pretty core to turkish nationalism) because it’s an “arab religion”. It’s in a (not so coincidentally) similar vein to the odin-racists hating jews so much that they reject christianity due to it being a “semitic religion”. I could get into it more if needed but if you also browse the articles about the grey wolves (why are they called that 🤔) it should be fairly clear why that comm is a fascist op that is now being spread on lemmy
I should have just went to the reddit sub tbh. I don’t know if it gets clearer than this. This is just skimming the frontpage for a minute
Obsessing over DNA, haplogroups and what ancient civilizations some DNA can(?) be trace backed to
Kurtpasa1923 (Kurt=wolf, the symbol of the nationalist movement, pasa=the ottoman title and 1923 is the founding of the turkish republic all smashed together) asks about a “Turan Union” https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wkso90/do_you_think_a_turan_union_could_be_established/
I guess they sanitize it for the lemmy audience? Idk, but that plus the related communities should paint a very clear picture imo
Related communities include
I asked for evidence of this community being guilty of what you’re claiming. I did it the first time, you answered everything other than that. I reiterated with
You responded with
So you’re making a severe accusation against a community and refusing to provide any supporting materials of the behavior from the community you’re accusing of this behavior. Then an hour later…
This is not Reddit. I asked for evidence of your claim that the community you claimed of being a fascist op was in fact a fascist op. You outright said you have personally decided not to dig into the history of it all. An hour later you dug into the history of it all from a different website and posted it as a gotcha.
You haven’t posted a single thing from lemmy that supports your claim. You have, however, posted links from another and unrelated website in claiming that that somehow bolsters your claim of fascism on this community. The thing that is concerning to me is that you seem to have zero problem going to this other website and looking for evidence of your claims but you refuse to do so here on Lemmy.
You literally just did that same effort in going to reddit, finding multiple posts, taking screenshots and making a comment. All to bolster your claim that the lemmy community is guilty of these things. Yet… its too much effort to find this behavior on the community you’re actually accusing of said behavior?
You keep avoiding the one question that I keep asking. You made a claim about this specific community. Do you have any evidence for this behavior? You are now grabbing ‘evidence’ from another website as if that stands for this community. Different website, different users, different mods, different posts. None of which is valid evidence to make a claim against another website.
So. Again.
You answered a lot, and I’m thankful for that. But you didn’t answer the major one. You’re accusing this entire community of being a fascist op.
Because everything you said is, more or less, disagreement. That’s perfectly fine and acceptable, that’s the world. But you’re making a very large claim and have yet to provide any evidence that the community is what you’re claiming.
that’s where i’m landing, too, @mathemachristian@hexbear.net . the evidence you’ve linked is that other communities on reddit and piefed.social are problems. i think the fact that the community under discussion is named similarly increases chances that fascists will find, and potentially brigade, the community on the FAF so it’s something to keep an eye out for, and something we’ll need @cm0002@lemmy.dbzer0.com to keep an eye out for (as well as admins as well of course)
@flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com , is there anything you think i’m missing here?
I am yet to see any evidence this particular community has broken any instance rules. And tbh, there’s a whiff of Chinese sensibilities about this whole complaint which raises an eyebrow for me.
Chinese actions towards Xinjiang, Tibet and Inner Mongolia in the last few decades was at least partially in response to the perceived threat of Turkic nationalism. And just as Putin used the false claim that Ukraine was a Nazi state as the pretext for Russian invasion, the Chinese government are very keen to paint any opposition to their one-party rule in a similar light.
But when China hates Muslims that’s socialism, unlike when America does it.
Are you implying I’m making this up to shut down criticism of the chinese government?
Are you implying the Chinese government doesn’t engage in propaganda to silence it’s critics? Every nation state does it. The line that all critics of [my glorious state] are either fascists or communists, depending on which boogeyman one wishes to invoke, is a self serving and dishonest one and should be called out as such. I’m not suggesting you are being insincere in your beliefs, but no, I don’t buy the argument as presented, especially as it relates to the dbzer0 community you mentioned.
what… no, all I’m talking about is the well established ties between the diaspora uyghur movement in Turkey with the grey wolves and the CIA. I found this good write-up of the Susurluk incident “Operation Gladio : the unholy alliance between the Vatican, the CIA, and the Mafia” by Paul L. Williams published by Prometheus Books in 2015. Chapter 22 “Gladio triumphant”. https://archive.org/details/operationgladiou0000will/page/266/mode/2up China is just two paragraphs of the whole thing but there is a much better write up about pan-turkism and it’s ties to the CIA etc. starting at page 269 if you’re interested.
There is not much written about the grey wolves explicitly iirc but whatever you can look into Abdullah Catli yourselves. I lived in turkey at the time of the susurluk incident. It was huge, it was covered for months especially since it involved the countries first female prime minister. But I bet none of you ever heard about it. Which is completely fine, but this is the kind of stuff I’d have to elaborate on if I actually wanted to dive into it. I don’t know why I get treated like this but whatever.
I’m sorry you feel mistreated. I like your posts in general. But i think you are too narrowly focussed on this topic, at the expense of contextualization. I’m not a fan of any form of nationalism. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a questionable motive behind an attack on Turkic nationalism, in particular. Both things can be true.
You could give proof when asked for over a month.
yeah you do. are there examples of crypto fascist delay-deny-distract-defame tactics that we can think of that bear any resemblance to these interactions?
this community is derived from, is named after and regularly links back to a eugenicist community and it’s successor community talks about an ethnonation. Sorry it hasn’t made a post that made their intention quite as clear in the two days where the only poster was copying posts over from reddit. Hence why I would need to do a deep dive into turanism and “turkic identity” to explain how this is all sus which is not what I’m gonna do for the mirror of a dead community, which is what I meant by “not digging into the history of it all”. The only reason I feel compelled to reply is because of your rude tone implying I’m at fault for not having an open-and-shut case. This is a turanist community, you can believe me who grew up around this kind of thinking or not, but don’t act like I have an obligation to explain every detail of turkish racism just to get a dead comm deleted.
How is the subreddit that spawned the community, that it links back to, that it’s named after unrelated??? How is the community that the guy opened after leaving lemmy.ml unrelated to this?? You probably know the nazi bar story but let me repeat it here
etc. you know the rest. The dude was acting all nice posting about his ancient heritage under a turanist flag. And I notice it so I thought I’d say something. Probably won’t happen again though.
What’s the concern? Genuinely, why is that concerning? I’m not even refusing to do so for the lemmy community, there just arent posts that are as clear cut. But even if, what are you so concerned about??
Nooooo way is going to reddit and grabbing a few links the same effort as writing an essay about this “turkic” movement, how it ties back to the ottoman empire, how it is used to spread anticommunism and rally right-wingers internationally (e.g. Syria, Turkmenistan). And seeing your standard of proof I’d have to explain everything in excruciating detail and pull up the original sources.
Its the one user, that is most likely also active on that sub, a mod for all I know, and is just literally copying posts over. He is literally trying to recreate that sub, which I’ve just noticed has a göktürk sign next to it’s name in case it just was not obvious enough what that community is.
No you aren’t, don’t do that shit with me. You don’t get to talk down to me like that and then pretend like all you want is a completely reasonable effort post.
And like I said the only reason I’m even in here responding to all of this, is because you all make it look like I’m the unreasonable one for posting about an issue that isn’t as clear-cut as to allow you all to make an instant decision.
See, this is shit I’m talking about. You’re making a claim against the community that could be easily backed up with a link. You didn’t bother. It’s just “take my word”.
Then, according to that, you could have easily grabbed links from the community but instead grabbed them from reddit? YOU are the one making this claim. It is on YOU to back it up. You do not get to act like the victim and act upset that someone has asked you to provide literally anything backing up your claim. My one stipulation was that it has to be from this community. That is it. For whatever reason, you’re refusing and expecting everyone else to dig through and do the work to prove your claim. That isn’t how this works.
Because it has different users and mods and is on a different website. The behavior of those users does not immediately equate to guilt of the users of the community on Lemmy. Moreover, you linked to several posts from reddit. If your claim is that they’re automatically posted to lemmy, then why didn’t you use the Lemmy posts? This is another example of bad faith.
Because Lemmy is literally designed to allow for different communities on different instances. I have no idea what that has to do with this at all.
Yet again. Got any links of this community actually doing that? You have not done so.
Because you cannot use solely the actions of another community to cast blame on this one without using evidence from this community to back your claims. I’m running out of ways to say the exact same thing.
Yes. You are. You said:
Is this not a refusal?
I’m concerned about someone who makes a claim about a group, provides zero evidence of this group doing what they claim, and then expecting everyone to take them at face value. That isn’t how this works.
I did not ask for an essay. I asked for literally any evidence that this community is doing what you’re claiming. You are the one inventing an essay. This is another example of bad faith. I have asked for something extremely simple, literally any links, and you are changing the standard of proof and getting angry about it.
My standard of proof is links from this community that back up what you’re claiming. That’s it. I’ve said this now several times in several comments. It’s really not that difficult.
Then link to a problematic post.
The Cyberpunk-y image? Or the flag?
You’re wrong. I am. I do like knowing more information and learning about this. Everything you’ve posted is useful information. You just haven’t done the one thing of linking it to actions of this community. You’re making a claim against groups as a whole but your initial post said:
All I am asking is for you to provide literally any links of that community behaving in such a way. That’s it. And you’re refusing to do so.
No, all I want are links to the community behaving in a way that you’re claiming. That’s significantly less effort than the comment you just typed.
You all.
If everyone here is reacting in the same way then the problem isn’t us.
No you see, Hexbear said it so therefore it’s true. Just have Crowbee link to ProleWiki and have them dogpile here and then it’s the truth!
If they Hexbear stinks of shit, then anyone who smells of soap is the issue.