Something like radical acceptance from dbt is my go to for someone with your argument. I can acknowledge injustice and also acknowledge that much of it is out of my control. I can work towards correcting injustice whenever possible but I also have to recognize that fixing everything is far beyond me. For my own mental health I need to be able to recognize when I am ruminating on an issue that cannot be fixed and learn to let go of that attachment to suffering
Alternatively I can be miserable, forever dwelling on injustices that I cannot fix myself. But how does that help change anything? Really would argue it’s just giving the fascist party what they want. If “the resistance” is beaten and broken simply by business as usual then is that not great for them?
In a non political context think of an emergency veterinarian or ER doctor who got into the field because they truly care for animals/people. They undoubtedly will deal with unfair death, seeing the results of abuse, systemic failures about cost of care resulting in premature death or disability, etc. probably on a near daily basis if they live anywhere with people. Should they simply resign themselves to misery because of this cruel and harsh reality? Or should they find a way to let go of the attachments to the misery involved in these tasks so they can do their (very necessary) job that already desperately needs more of people like them
Yeah well said. In a way realizing just how broken our civilization is helped me let go of some personal issues, like demands I put on myself.
But I’m lucky and privileged, I haven’t suffered great traumatizing injustices like OP. I do think it’s an important question how therapists deal with systemic injustice and oppression and environmental collapse on a global scale. I don’t think psychotherapy really developed to deal with this, the ideal would be to get people out of these situation and let them heal. But there is no getting out.
OP is a good example of the psychological terrorism inflicted on most sane people by Trump and MAGA. Deliberate. We’re in an abusive relationship but there is no halfway house and we can’t divorce. People don’t even understand that neoliberalism is driving all this, and most therapists do not either.
So I do think it should be radical acceptance. But there is the dichotomy: Anger gets shit done. People should get angry and channel that anger into productive or well, subversive ways. At least if we want a chance to defeat our “abusers”.
Is civilization ‘broken’? It seems like people have the perception that the world should be just and good things should come to those who somehow ‘deserve’ it. That’s not reality and never has been. Civilization in general is the movement to better for all in my mind, but that’s a slow, grueling path and we haven’t gotten close to it yet. We are one dumb monkey away from ending civilization as we know it every day. Or just a couple meals away from civil war.
But it could be, and anyone who learns that it’s not reality and has any reaction other than “well why the fuck not?” and a determination to make that the reality by any means necessary isn’t a good or even neutral person.
Your complacency is actually a bigger problem than the greed of the people benefitting directly from the world’s injustices.
The only appropriate or morally acceptable reaction to seeing injustice is to resolve to stop it by any means necessary.
In the 100,000 years of humanity it has been, most of that time. In the 8000 years of the existence of domination systems we’ve been moving away from that ideal and not towards it, and for the 300 years capitalism has existed we’ve been sprinting away from it like it was an apex predator, but it was the norm up until fairly recently on the scale of human evolution. There were even a few generations between the invention of the ox-driven plow and the waves of kurgan invasions where people likely got to enjoy the benefits of agriculture and urbanization without the crushing demands of laboring for the good of an oppressor.
So in your mind causing further injustice to stop an injustice is morally acceptable? You said any means necessary.
Punishing the perpetrators of injustice or violently preventing them from doing further injustice is not an injustice, so your entire point makes no sense.
In the 100,000 years of humanity it has been, most of that time.
Every historian would disagree with you. For almost all of humanity the mass majority lived short brutal lives, and often starved or were flat out killed. Hell, that was if you were the lucky few that survived childhood to begin with.
Domination systems? Seriously? Yes, absolute rulers and domination over the world has worked out so well for humanity.
Capitalism isn’t the best system, but like democracy, it’s the best until some bright group of monkies come up with a better one that can be implemented.
You could be the first buddy.
And yes, solving injustice with more injustice is the same logic the Nazi’s used to kill people they didn’t like.
Perhaps you’ll grow up, get out of the basement and actually live life, realizing it’s a whole lot better than 99% of history has allowed for.
You could have saved everyone some time by just leading with the fact that you haven’t opened a history book that wasn’t required for school ever in your life and that you uncritically accept everything the billionaire class tells you as fact.
You’re arguing against things I never said because I foolishly assumed you to be literate, so I didn’t spell out everything like this was a ELI5.
When you understand what Domination Systems are, what the Kurgan Invasions were, and how most humans actually lived in prehistory, come back and read that comment again and see if you can’t do better.
And punishing the perpetrators of injustice is still not itself an injustice.
Well my minimum standard is that we as a civilization do not steer towards extinction. Or that we reasonably minimize the risk of extinction. If an alien would look at our failed action on climate change, it would think we failed a very basic test for a “rational intelligent civilization”.
We are incapable of acting rational as a civilization. This hasn’t always been the case, even though people have always been assholes.
There has been much technological progress and social progress for minorities, but negative progress in quite a few very important areas. Raising children, news / social media, propaganda and disinfo, wealth inequality, climate change, consumerism, resource depletion. Gaza, Ukraine, Iran and other wars. Or the insane investment into AI and datacenters is just bonkers. Crisis in science and research. Autonomous killer robots will soon allow complete totalitarian control.
Outdated voting systems that do not allow better democracy. The US can’t be called a democracy at all. China as a one party system with is taking better care of their people than the US, because of their socialist roots they actually believe in something besides self serving unlimited greed. The elites and plutocrats in the west believe in nothing.
And the trouble is that with technological progress it becomes increasingly more possible to make ourselves extinct. Right now even with all out nuclear war it would be pretty impossible to scrape us off the planet. But add some bioweapons or use mass killer robots or AGI then it becomes feasible. The richest man in the world is actively trying to create a malicious “anti-woke” super intelligence.
We are incapable of acting rational as a civilization. This hasn’t always been the case, even though people have always been assholes.
This has literally always been the case. When has it been the case for the world for say 100 years? Please let us know.
Raising children, news / social media, propaganda and disinfo, wealth inequality, climate change, consumerism, resource depletion. Gaza, Ukraine, Iran and other wars. Or the insane investment into AI and datacenters is just bonkers. Crisis in science and research. Autonomous killer robots will soon allow complete totalitarian control.
All of this is opinion rather than objective fact. Progress has been made for everyone. Look at 1950 to now and certain groups have improved much more than others, but all groups have improved. That’s progress. It’s never equal for everyone, nor could it be, unless you only move progress for the lowest common denominator.
You sit here and type on a device made by slave labor, wear clothes, likely eat meat, want or have had children, all things further destroying others and the world.
Its incredibly easy to blame ‘them’ but real hard to look internally. Companies don’t exist without people to buy their products, which you do not have to use, you do not have to buy, and yet you continue to do so.
And the trouble is that with technological progress it becomes increasingly more possible to make ourselves extinct. Right now even with all out nuclear war it would be pretty impossible to scrape us off the planet. But add some bioweapons or use mass killer robots or AGI then it becomes feasible. The richest man in the world is actively trying to create a malicious “anti-woke” super intelligence.
None of those can ‘eliminate’ humans. Will it make it tougher for 8 billion people to survive? Absolutely. The planet shouldn’t have that many people to begin with. When humans are long gone as every other species that has come before us, the earth will carry on without us, and probably will be better for it.
Perhaps stop being part of the system that is causing the issues to begin with.
Something like radical acceptance from dbt is my go to for someone with your argument. I can acknowledge injustice and also acknowledge that much of it is out of my control. I can work towards correcting injustice whenever possible but I also have to recognize that fixing everything is far beyond me. For my own mental health I need to be able to recognize when I am ruminating on an issue that cannot be fixed and learn to let go of that attachment to suffering
Alternatively I can be miserable, forever dwelling on injustices that I cannot fix myself. But how does that help change anything? Really would argue it’s just giving the fascist party what they want. If “the resistance” is beaten and broken simply by business as usual then is that not great for them?
In a non political context think of an emergency veterinarian or ER doctor who got into the field because they truly care for animals/people. They undoubtedly will deal with unfair death, seeing the results of abuse, systemic failures about cost of care resulting in premature death or disability, etc. probably on a near daily basis if they live anywhere with people. Should they simply resign themselves to misery because of this cruel and harsh reality? Or should they find a way to let go of the attachments to the misery involved in these tasks so they can do their (very necessary) job that already desperately needs more of people like them
Yeah well said. In a way realizing just how broken our civilization is helped me let go of some personal issues, like demands I put on myself.
But I’m lucky and privileged, I haven’t suffered great traumatizing injustices like OP. I do think it’s an important question how therapists deal with systemic injustice and oppression and environmental collapse on a global scale. I don’t think psychotherapy really developed to deal with this, the ideal would be to get people out of these situation and let them heal. But there is no getting out.
OP is a good example of the psychological terrorism inflicted on most sane people by Trump and MAGA. Deliberate. We’re in an abusive relationship but there is no halfway house and we can’t divorce. People don’t even understand that neoliberalism is driving all this, and most therapists do not either.
So I do think it should be radical acceptance. But there is the dichotomy: Anger gets shit done. People should get angry and channel that anger into productive or well, subversive ways. At least if we want a chance to defeat our “abusers”.
Is civilization ‘broken’? It seems like people have the perception that the world should be just and good things should come to those who somehow ‘deserve’ it. That’s not reality and never has been. Civilization in general is the movement to better for all in my mind, but that’s a slow, grueling path and we haven’t gotten close to it yet. We are one dumb monkey away from ending civilization as we know it every day. Or just a couple meals away from civil war.
But it could be, and anyone who learns that it’s not reality and has any reaction other than “well why the fuck not?” and a determination to make that the reality by any means necessary isn’t a good or even neutral person.
Your complacency is actually a bigger problem than the greed of the people benefitting directly from the world’s injustices.
The only appropriate or morally acceptable reaction to seeing injustice is to resolve to stop it by any means necessary.
In the 100,000 years of humanity it hasn’t been and you suddenly are the bright one who thinks it will change because ‘it could be’?
So in your mind causing further injustice to stop an injustice is morally acceptable? You said any means necessary.
In the 100,000 years of humanity it has been, most of that time. In the 8000 years of the existence of domination systems we’ve been moving away from that ideal and not towards it, and for the 300 years capitalism has existed we’ve been sprinting away from it like it was an apex predator, but it was the norm up until fairly recently on the scale of human evolution. There were even a few generations between the invention of the ox-driven plow and the waves of kurgan invasions where people likely got to enjoy the benefits of agriculture and urbanization without the crushing demands of laboring for the good of an oppressor.
Punishing the perpetrators of injustice or violently preventing them from doing further injustice is not an injustice, so your entire point makes no sense.
Every historian would disagree with you. For almost all of humanity the mass majority lived short brutal lives, and often starved or were flat out killed. Hell, that was if you were the lucky few that survived childhood to begin with.
Domination systems? Seriously? Yes, absolute rulers and domination over the world has worked out so well for humanity.
Capitalism isn’t the best system, but like democracy, it’s the best until some bright group of monkies come up with a better one that can be implemented.
You could be the first buddy.
And yes, solving injustice with more injustice is the same logic the Nazi’s used to kill people they didn’t like.
Perhaps you’ll grow up, get out of the basement and actually live life, realizing it’s a whole lot better than 99% of history has allowed for.
You could have saved everyone some time by just leading with the fact that you haven’t opened a history book that wasn’t required for school ever in your life and that you uncritically accept everything the billionaire class tells you as fact.
You’re arguing against things I never said because I foolishly assumed you to be literate, so I didn’t spell out everything like this was a ELI5.
When you understand what Domination Systems are, what the Kurgan Invasions were, and how most humans actually lived in prehistory, come back and read that comment again and see if you can’t do better.
And punishing the perpetrators of injustice is still not itself an injustice.
Well my minimum standard is that we as a civilization do not steer towards extinction. Or that we reasonably minimize the risk of extinction. If an alien would look at our failed action on climate change, it would think we failed a very basic test for a “rational intelligent civilization”.
We are incapable of acting rational as a civilization. This hasn’t always been the case, even though people have always been assholes.
There has been much technological progress and social progress for minorities, but negative progress in quite a few very important areas. Raising children, news / social media, propaganda and disinfo, wealth inequality, climate change, consumerism, resource depletion. Gaza, Ukraine, Iran and other wars. Or the insane investment into AI and datacenters is just bonkers. Crisis in science and research. Autonomous killer robots will soon allow complete totalitarian control.
Outdated voting systems that do not allow better democracy. The US can’t be called a democracy at all. China as a one party system with is taking better care of their people than the US, because of their socialist roots they actually believe in something besides self serving unlimited greed. The elites and plutocrats in the west believe in nothing.
And the trouble is that with technological progress it becomes increasingly more possible to make ourselves extinct. Right now even with all out nuclear war it would be pretty impossible to scrape us off the planet. But add some bioweapons or use mass killer robots or AGI then it becomes feasible. The richest man in the world is actively trying to create a malicious “anti-woke” super intelligence.
This has literally always been the case. When has it been the case for the world for say 100 years? Please let us know.
All of this is opinion rather than objective fact. Progress has been made for everyone. Look at 1950 to now and certain groups have improved much more than others, but all groups have improved. That’s progress. It’s never equal for everyone, nor could it be, unless you only move progress for the lowest common denominator.
You sit here and type on a device made by slave labor, wear clothes, likely eat meat, want or have had children, all things further destroying others and the world.
Its incredibly easy to blame ‘them’ but real hard to look internally. Companies don’t exist without people to buy their products, which you do not have to use, you do not have to buy, and yet you continue to do so.
None of those can ‘eliminate’ humans. Will it make it tougher for 8 billion people to survive? Absolutely. The planet shouldn’t have that many people to begin with. When humans are long gone as every other species that has come before us, the earth will carry on without us, and probably will be better for it.
Perhaps stop being part of the system that is causing the issues to begin with.