I mean he rightly rejected the idea of a 30 day ceasefire without any conditions. He’s basically saying, sure we can have a ceasefire after the following conditions are met:
No NATO membership for Ukraine
No NATO “peacekeepers” in Ukraine
Ukraine is denazified/demilitarised
The 4 Donbass regions are recognised as Russian territories plus Crimea
I expect Trump admin will ultimately gonna take the deal because their other option is to just cut and run. The deal will at least let the US normalize relations with Russia while cutting and running would just be humiliation.
The US made a proposal, Russia is making a counter-proposal. This is how negotiations are conducted. Westerners seem to think that the way it works is US and Ukraine negotiate something between themselves and just go and present that to Russia to accept. That’s now how it works, that is just the same side talking to itself.
I’m simplifying here because this is the way we should be talking about this to liberals.
Of course you are right on what the subtext here was. What is actually happening is that Russia is simply playing the same game it always does: Putin being extremely diplomatic and careful not to look like he’s closing any doors, meanwhile his staff, Lavrov and so on, telling it bluntly like it is, laying out what Russia’s position is, what it will accept and what it won’t.
The western media can spin it however they like but for the rest of the world this will look like Russia being reasonable and open to proposals, while also being realistic. Putin managed to deftly avoid the PR trap the Americans set here. And it’s not like it was hard to see that this is what was coming. Putin was never just going to say flat out “no”, but he also wasn’t going to let himself be trapped by such an obvious, noobish ploy.
This was noob shit from the Trump team. Even Biden’s people would have done a better job laying a trap. I don’t know how they thought this would work. If there is anything Russia knows it’s how to maneuver diplomatically.
Oh yeah no argument there. In general, I’ve always found the trend of western politicians negotiating with themselves and then just expecting Russia to agree to that hilarious. It never works out for them, but they keep doing it.
I expect Trump will try and get concessions on at least one of those from Putin and I would not be surprised if Putin ultimately agrees on something in exchange for US support in doing regime change in Ukraine so Russia doesn’t have to push its military force all the way to the far west of the country and try and deal with dismantling the whole thing itself. No NATO is too important to give up. No NATO peacekeepers the same (at least in any meaningful number). That leaves the options of Trump demanding and getting something like denazification not being completed though they are demilitarized in exchange Russia gets the 4 Donbass regions and Crimea recognized and the rest of Ukraine becomes a rump state of extremely angry nationalists possibly under patrol by a UN mandate peacekeeping force instead of NATO which the west will spin as them stopping Russia from taking all of Ukraine.
I admit it’s possible that Russia gets all its objectives but I have the feeling Putin would rather not fight Ukraine fall of Berlin style where the west supplies them to fight to the last Ukrainian and keeps the sanctions on and in order to get sanctions relief and international recognition for the territorial reality I expect Putin will be flexible in some way to allow the west some amount of cope-laden face-saving. Ukraine is going to get fucked over hard by western capitalists of course and I expect that any deal will include respecting their grabs of resources and possibly striking discount deals on minerals and such from the new Russian regions under decade+ contracts at very favorable terms for the west or something like that.
I really can’t see Putin giving in on any of these myself. These are the red lines Russia outlined a while back, and they remained consistent on their position. If anything, I think it’s likely that Russia plans to take more territory as opposed to less. The reality is that Russia is in a very strong bargaining position here. The US very clearly wants to extricate itself from the war, and time is on Russia’s side. If the US doesn’t accept the deal, then Russia will just continue to do what it’s doing.
Furthermore, the Kursk collapse couldn’t have come at a worse time for the US. There are pretty much no fortifications in the Sumy region, and Russia can just keep rolling all the way to Kiev from there. The AFU has no choice but to try and stop that by pulling troops from the southern front that’s already collapsing. The longer the US waits to make a deal the strong position Russia will be in.
If I was Putin, I wouldn’t agree to such a ceasefire. Denazification is a must at this point, along with all the other demands. If the nazis are left running whatever is left from Ukraine, in 10-20 years, this whole thing will be repeated again. We’ve seen how Syria turned out.
And yet, you somehow are clearly more inbred than the russians in your head. As shown by your pathetic excuse of deflecting away from being a racist piece of shit.
Why would we want normal relations? Because it’s better for us all diplomatically, less likely to result in another global war, and less likely to result in international economic decline. Normal relations are not a favor we are doing for other countries, it’s a favor we’re doing to ourselves and an obligation to the people of the world. We aren’t poised to come out on top in every fight we pick.
If your whole view of Russia is informed by a three-year-long conflict with our Ukrainian “allies,” you may need to do some thinking about your own country’s habit of fomenting conflict and behaving aggressively.
I mean he rightly rejected the idea of a 30 day ceasefire without any conditions. He’s basically saying, sure we can have a ceasefire after the following conditions are met:
I expect Trump admin will ultimately gonna take the deal because their other option is to just cut and run. The deal will at least let the US normalize relations with Russia while cutting and running would just be humiliation.
The US made a proposal, Russia is making a counter-proposal. This is how negotiations are conducted. Westerners seem to think that the way it works is US and Ukraine negotiate something between themselves and just go and present that to Russia to accept. That’s now how it works, that is just the same side talking to itself.
I’m simplifying here because this is the way we should be talking about this to liberals.
Of course you are right on what the subtext here was. What is actually happening is that Russia is simply playing the same game it always does: Putin being extremely diplomatic and careful not to look like he’s closing any doors, meanwhile his staff, Lavrov and so on, telling it bluntly like it is, laying out what Russia’s position is, what it will accept and what it won’t.
The western media can spin it however they like but for the rest of the world this will look like Russia being reasonable and open to proposals, while also being realistic. Putin managed to deftly avoid the PR trap the Americans set here. And it’s not like it was hard to see that this is what was coming. Putin was never just going to say flat out “no”, but he also wasn’t going to let himself be trapped by such an obvious, noobish ploy.
This was noob shit from the Trump team. Even Biden’s people would have done a better job laying a trap. I don’t know how they thought this would work. If there is anything Russia knows it’s how to maneuver diplomatically.
Oh yeah no argument there. In general, I’ve always found the trend of western politicians negotiating with themselves and then just expecting Russia to agree to that hilarious. It never works out for them, but they keep doing it.
I expect Trump will try and get concessions on at least one of those from Putin and I would not be surprised if Putin ultimately agrees on something in exchange for US support in doing regime change in Ukraine so Russia doesn’t have to push its military force all the way to the far west of the country and try and deal with dismantling the whole thing itself. No NATO is too important to give up. No NATO peacekeepers the same (at least in any meaningful number). That leaves the options of Trump demanding and getting something like denazification not being completed though they are demilitarized in exchange Russia gets the 4 Donbass regions and Crimea recognized and the rest of Ukraine becomes a rump state of extremely angry nationalists possibly under patrol by a UN mandate peacekeeping force instead of NATO which the west will spin as them stopping Russia from taking all of Ukraine.
I admit it’s possible that Russia gets all its objectives but I have the feeling Putin would rather not fight Ukraine fall of Berlin style where the west supplies them to fight to the last Ukrainian and keeps the sanctions on and in order to get sanctions relief and international recognition for the territorial reality I expect Putin will be flexible in some way to allow the west some amount of cope-laden face-saving. Ukraine is going to get fucked over hard by western capitalists of course and I expect that any deal will include respecting their grabs of resources and possibly striking discount deals on minerals and such from the new Russian regions under decade+ contracts at very favorable terms for the west or something like that.
I really can’t see Putin giving in on any of these myself. These are the red lines Russia outlined a while back, and they remained consistent on their position. If anything, I think it’s likely that Russia plans to take more territory as opposed to less. The reality is that Russia is in a very strong bargaining position here. The US very clearly wants to extricate itself from the war, and time is on Russia’s side. If the US doesn’t accept the deal, then Russia will just continue to do what it’s doing.
Furthermore, the Kursk collapse couldn’t have come at a worse time for the US. There are pretty much no fortifications in the Sumy region, and Russia can just keep rolling all the way to Kiev from there. The AFU has no choice but to try and stop that by pulling troops from the southern front that’s already collapsing. The longer the US waits to make a deal the strong position Russia will be in.
God I hope the Trump admin keeps bickering with Ukraine and Europe to give them enough time to humiliate themselves.
If I was Putin, I wouldn’t agree to such a ceasefire. Denazification is a must at this point, along with all the other demands. If the nazis are left running whatever is left from Ukraine, in 10-20 years, this whole thing will be repeated again. We’ve seen how Syria turned out.
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Oh look, the least racist sack of shit liberal appears!
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Must be hard going through life being a sack of human garbage that you are. Feel sorry for you bud.
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And yet, you somehow are clearly more inbred than the russians in your head. As shown by your pathetic excuse of deflecting away from being a racist piece of shit.
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Racist AND misogynistic, and a prick to boot! Go back to reddit, dumbass.
Why would we want normal relations? Because it’s better for us all diplomatically, less likely to result in another global war, and less likely to result in international economic decline. Normal relations are not a favor we are doing for other countries, it’s a favor we’re doing to ourselves and an obligation to the people of the world. We aren’t poised to come out on top in every fight we pick.
If your whole view of Russia is informed by a three-year-long conflict with our Ukrainian “allies,” you may need to do some thinking about your own country’s habit of fomenting conflict and behaving aggressively.
This is not the way to have an adult conversation and you’re not going to gain anything by calling people names.