- cross-posted to:
- AntiMeme@sopuli.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- AntiMeme@sopuli.xyz
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Taking away (partially or completely) reliance upon carbon or nuclear energy will reduce costs and help save the planet. Like my solar set up, it costs less to run my home and workshop in summer than it does in winter.
Sure, but the peaks and lows are gonna be steeper. We have that in Finland because we built a lot of wind power in the last 20 years and barely with great expense completed only a single nuke station.
Electricity costs are currently kinda ok https://eprice.info/ but they frequently go up to 20-30c/kWh when it gets colder and there’s less wind.
And then he was yeeted out of the window
I’m confused, how does this help shareholders?
This is an absolute fact: the government refuses to invest in green energy because it produces too much energy and they’d have to give out power for free.
Reminder that China’s competent government has done exactly this, and as a result they produce 93% of the world’s solar photovoltaic panels.
Can we get the competency with out the whole… Everything else?
Or is our choice between awful and ineffective or awful and effective?
You can’t say bad things about the government in China.
This might sound like an absurd restriction of free speech, but consider that it’s also considered highly illegal in germany to ask for the abolishment of democracy. Many far-right groups do this, and the Verfassungsschutz (basically a kind of special police force) keeps a close eye on them because of that, calls them “verfassungsgefährdend” (going against the constitution). Monarchies like england had similar laws around 1900, where you could say everything except talk badly about the monarchy in power. That was known as the “english liberalism” because in many other countries, you could say even less. China does the same today, just that instead of the german constitution or the english monarchy it’s the Communist Party.
It is what it is. The world is arguably better with them than without
awful and effective?
It’s bad to do green energy when you’re Chinese because… ?
What’s the awful everything else? China has consistently some of the highest government satisfaction rates in the world
As a Spaniard, it’s hard to conceive 90+% of the population being satisfied with the central government, everyone here hates our government and politicians.
Are you sure you’re speaking for Chinese people when you criticize whatever “everything else” you refer to?
“When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds soon follow”
John Dean
So 1.4 billion Chinese are essentially suffering Stockholm Syndrome from the evil Chinese Government, and their satisfaction rates have nothing to do with the consistently increasing living standards?
As a Spaniard, you should ask your parents and/or grandparents if in Franco’s day they would really tell their real opinions about their government to some random person doing a poll.
Government satisfaction data in an autocracy is always going to be poluted because people fear their words might reach the ears of somebody in a position of authority and them being punished in some way for being critical of the government, so they keep it to themselves and share it at most with family and close friends.
(And this is before we even count the effects from people’s main information sources being highly controlled in such regimes, so literally they might think other countries are shitholes compared to theirs because that’s what newspapes and TV tell them. Even though people are quite a lot more cynical about the “news” in such regimes - one of the Soviet times jokes was “There is no pravda [truth] in the Pravda [the newspaper], there is no izvestia [news] in the Izvestia [another newspaper]” - such total control in aggregate still pushes public opinion to be better than otherwise).
People have no such need to keep their mouth shut in Democracies. Further, I would even say that in Democracies people are incentivised to be loudly critical - those who support a different political party than the one in power tend to be loudly critical purelly out of tribalism, same as they would criticize the other team in a footbal match even if that team was playing well.
All this to say that we don’t really know how much people in China are satisfied or not with the authorities there because smart people living in a autocratic regime know better than to voice criticism of those in power, which polutes the data, whilst in Democracies political clubism also probably polutes the data but in the opposite direction.
Your comment can be wholly ignored by explaining to you that the surveys I refer to are done by western institutions like Pew Research, the University of California or the Ash Center for Democratic Governance (source).
You, as a westerner, believe your western propaganda that China is an antidemocratic autocracy where people can’t give their political opinions freely. Chinese people simply don’t feel that way as per any serious study, and your opinion can be safely ignored because it’s based on your misunderstandings as a misled westerner.
I happen to live next door to Spain, in Portugal, and I did ask my parents and older friends (some of which who are very leftwing and were Communists back in the days of the Revolution) and back then in our own Fascism (which ran parallel to Spain’s) nobody would tell their true opinion about the government to a stranger, much less a stranger claiming to be doing a poll for some university in a country which is viewed and views itself as an adversary of your own country.
Hell, in such a setup people would loudly tell the foreigner (or local working for those foreigners) just how great their government was just in case that was some kind of sting operation by the secret police or what you said leaked out: back when even your neighbours could rat you out to the secret police for saying something critical of the regime, criticizing the regime to somebody claiming to be doing a “poll” like this was a good way to end up a political prisioner (and, unlike those hailing from the middle class, politicial prisioners from poorer families didn’t get the velvet glove treatment, and most people were poor and working class).
So, it’s strange you didn’t ask such things from older people in the country you claim to hail from…
That and given how you phrased…
You, as a westerner, believe your western propaganda that China is an antidemocratic autocracy where people can’t give their political opinions freely. Chinese people simply don’t feel that way as per any serious study, and your opinion can be safely ignored because it’s based on your misunderstandings as a misled westerner.
all sounds a lot like you’re not a Spaniard. Which would make your earlier statement:
As a Spaniard, it’s hard to conceive 90+% of the population being satisfied with the central government
a lie.
Guess who would try and pass themselves as a “westerner” to seem more trustworthy in a forum mostly frequented by “westerners” when defending China?
A propaganda astroturfer.
(Funilly enough, there’s a ton of anti-China propaganda in the West, especially in the US, it’s just that this time you seriously overplayed that as a card when you tried to whitewash your own propaganda with it)
PS: Oh and just to point out how much that “westerner bias” bollocks applies to me, just after I made that previous comment on your bullshit, I made an equally critical comment on some other muppet from the “other” side talking about “China’s attrocities”, and that comment of mine definitelly sounds like pro-China to any simpleton tribalist moron or propaganda sockpuppet.
My biggest “bias” in this is against Hipocrisy and Propaganda.
It’s great being comfortable while your government is committing atrocities. Cozy cozy!
Waiting for the day someone finds a government who doesn’t commit atrocities.
In a field of shit, pointing at a specific turd and shouting “Look at that shit” is at best redundant, at worst sleazy propagandistic and hipocrite bollocks.
China’s present day level of support for atrocity is nothing compared with most of the West’s active support (diplomatic, economic and even with weapons) for the the present day equivalent of the Nazis committing a Genocide in Gaza.
Even what Russia is doing in Ukraine (with the support of China) is nowhere close to that shit if measured in terms of civilian casualties as a percentage of the population (even if including military casualties, it’s still well below the levels of bloodshed in Gaza).
We would need to go back to the time of Mao to find China supporting atrocities at such a level.
That “atrocities” flag is best waved from the top of the moral high ground, not from the top of a pile of Palestinian children’s bones.
Are you talking about the EU-supported genocide of Palestinians?
They might’ve meant USA.
China has consistently some of the highest government satisfaction rates in the world
it’s hard to conceive 90+% of the population being satisfied with the central government, everyone here hates our government and politicians.
You’re so close to tripping over the fact that authoritarian governments can’t be trusted to provide honest answers. Who wants to say you’re unsatisfied when doing so could get you vanned?
I mean I would be skeptical too of any piece of info that comes from China, but how does that coincide with only 44% of “Township” people being satisfied 10 years ago?
I’ve given my sources in other comments and they’re all western institutions. Your inability to believe them comes not from reasonable skepticism, but from western propaganda giving you cognitive bias against anything positive coming from China.
One of the biggest government contractors in China is the company that conducts polling.
How do you tell the difference between an authoritarian government and a government that is responsive to public sentiment but also happens to be on diplomatically shaky ground with your own leaders?
China has literally a fascist government. Authoritarians that seize corporate control for nationalistic interests while still deferring to original private property owners.
Cult of leadership is typical too. Which includes the satisfaction of citizens.
Makes me laugh when people here laud China. Especially when they’re commies who fell for the lie that China is communism.
Remind me. What happens when you speak ill of the government there? You think that might affect polls?
Ill freely admit China has many strengths… but it is definitely authoritarian also.
You think that might affect polls?
Polls carried out by Pew Research, University of California and other western institutions. Too communist for you?
What happens when you speak ill of the government there?
For the most part nothing, you may argue there’s a degree of censorship on Chinese social media, but if there were political prisoners for having “the wrong opinions” in China we wouldn’t hear the end of it. There’s nothing like Russia’s Navalny in China.
China has consistently some of the highest government satisfaction rates in the world
Surveyman: Hello random Chinese friendo, how is life under the glorious CCP?
Random Chinese friend: Can’t complain.
Surveyman: China has consistently some of the highest government satisfaction rates in the world
You can question the methodology, I’ve already given the sources in other replies if you’re interested (which links to several different studies, all carried out by western organizations such as University of California or the Pew Research Institute). You’re just not really interested, and you will reject the information because your cognitive bias tells you to.
No, no, you can’t have green energy until corporations figure out how to make just as much money off it as they do fossil fuels. Don’t worry though, they’re innovating. Last summer some prick about had my dad convinced to pay him to put solar panels on his roof and then also continue paying for the power those panels generated.
They don’t want it to be cheaper. This is a nice upwards funnel of wealth for them.
Fuck your government, cover your roof in panels and enjoy. Simple as
In FL, even if your home fully self sustains on solar and batteries, by law you still have to pay the power company $36 a month to be connected to the grid you don’t want to be a part of.
I left FL… over a year ago.
Here’s the other kicker… a huge chunk of Republican campaign funding comes from the power companies. FL residents are essentially being forced to fund the campaigns of people that seek to rule over them, not represent them.
Brother the only way it’s cheaper to source your own panels is if you buy them outright. Less than 50% of Americans have a savings account let alone 10k in disposable income.
If you take out a loan for the panels the payments equal what your electric bill would be and by the time you pay off the panels it’s time to replace them.
I had a whole thing about my setup here, but it was more than I want to share. Short version, panels are cheaper, easier to deal with, and longer lasting than you think. Most manufacturers guarantee 80% capacity after 30 years, area covered is more important than max output, there’s no need to buy the whole thing at once, 3-5k no more than 1200 at a time over a few years can get a lot of people all they need
So you paid the same amount you thought you were going to pay, your bill didn’t increase that whole time, your carbon footprint was lower and you didn’t give any money to the ratfuckers? Where is the downside?
It’s not lower. Most electric bills are lower in the winter. You’d pay more in the winter months.
because of nationalism, i cannot.
This argument has received responses calling me a Commie, a Tankie, and ‘a would-be enslaver of humanity’ from family, friends, and internet randoms alike.
For me it is that I just… sorta listened to Bill Nye in the 90s about carbon dioxide.
I am pretty sure 90% of people who get called tankies on Lemmy are not communists. Tankie-calling is by far the most obnoxious Lemmy community pastime. But I’ll give them this, it’s an extremely annoying word, much more annoying to be called than “fascist”. We need an unjustifiably smug sounding pejorative for people who call everyone tankies, to call them in exchange so that they can see how not epic their insult is.
The key thing is that the insult needs to seem like you think it’s really badass and brave of you to call them that, and it should seem like you think they’re seething at you, when in reality it’s a super lame insult. Like so:
“You’re a tankie” “Oh no the Tankie-twister has arrived!” “Wtf kind of lame insult is that lol” “Now you know how everyone else feels about being called tankies”
Does the person deny the human rights violation of USSR and China? Then they’re tankies. Simple as that.
I mean, ACAB. I’m sure you can find human rights abuses anywhere you want to look.
But what does this have to do with decarbonization? Is China’s production of photovoltaics materially more abusive than America’s production of hydrocarbons?
Then they’re tankies.
Was George Bush Jr a Tankie when he invaded Iraq? Is Trump a Tankie for invading Venezuela?
Or is the whole Blood For Oil thing Based and Freedom-Pilled?
I should add, those who defend China and USSR as if they can’t do anything wrong are DEFINITELY tankies.
those who defend China and USSR as if they can’t do anything wrong
I’ve yet to see anyone - left, right, or center - that has suggested an entire country’s worth of people has never done anything wrong in its history.
“Tankie” has a real, actual, honest to god historical definition. Its not just “people who liked the Soviet system more than the capitalist system”. Its an explicit advocacy for non-interventionism during the Cold War. Specifically, it is British progressives who didn’t want the UK sending support to Hungarian reactionaries during the 1956 revolt.
The British media portrayed any reluctance to intercede on behalf of anti-communists abroad as pro-Khrushchev puppets who wanted to see Russian tanks flatten all of Europe. That’s what a “Tankie” is supposed to mean. It’s a person accused (by anti-soviet British media) of wanting a Soviet conquest of the planet.
If you definition hasn’t evolved since the 50s it might be a little out of date. That definition could draw retirement at this point.
If you definition hasn’t evolved since the 50s
How do you read English?
That’s an interesting spin I have ever seen of whitewashing crimes of communist regimes. You’re definitely a tankie.
Probably an offshoot of just how many tankies there are on Lemmy. Some people are definitely getting caught in the crossfire.
I am pretty sure 90% of people who get called tankies on Lemmy are not communists
It’s funny, because the term was coined back in the 1950s to describe British progressives who opposed NATO intervention in Eastern Europe.
If anti-interventionism is what passes the bar for Communism, I suspect Lemmy might be flush with the little red bastards.
The reciprocal word I’ve typically seen is “liberal”.
Do people get upset about that
That’s just tossing a hand grenade into any political discourse.
We need an unjustifiably smug sounding pejorative for people who call everyone tankies, to call them in exchange so that they can see how not epic their insult is.
A lot of people dont deserve a reply. Works great for me. I’m sure thats been me many times in the past. (And future)
Lower prices? Yeah, I’m sure they’ll get right on that…
Bold of you to assume the government cares about you at all.
Not to mention that in certain countries they could also get better public services if they didn’t need to spend money on a military sized for power projection into the Middle East …
If “our” means on the US, you may have to take a look at your electricity monopolies for it to make any difference.
The US has some of the cheapest energy in the civilized world. I’m not sure what to draw from that fact, but it is clear our energy system works pretty well for the end-user.
For a counterpoint, check out Germany’s expensive as fuck energy.
You have some of the world’s cheapest electricity wholesale. You also have a huge variance in prices to end-user, with the people that complain on the internet being among the most expensive in the world… because, of course, people that get cheaper prices don’t complain.
Also, yes, electricity in Germany is expensive as fuck.
It’s also one of the oldest and poorly maintained for much of the country. As the data centers keep going up it’s making it harder and harder to meet customers energy needs.
Imagine the savings to society with the energy independence from green energy
- shut down most of the continent wide natural gas distribution infrastructure
- shut down most of the continent wide gasoline distribution infrastructure
- cut way back on the military when we no longer have to protect oil kingdoms
There were recently a couple of bad gas leaks locally and it was an interesting reminder that there’s these natural gas lines laid crisscrossing the northern US that are just explosions waiting to happen. There’s been some nasty ones too
The unavoidable conclusion in today’s world is that we need to be phasing out natural gas. It can’t be cleanly turned off and back on, it’s wildly dangerous if it leaks out due to poor install/maintaince or natural disasters, it can explode if someone happens to drill into a gas line (I know a guy who did internet installs and at the time he joked about how “yeah you just drill holes into folks homes to poke the cables through and hope you don’t hear hissing after drilling”) during a house fire it just feeds more extremely potent fuel into the fire until turned off. About the only benefit is when it’s extremely cold out, such as when the destabilizing polar vortex whips through, natural gas is probably the most energy efficient option to keep homes and businesses inhabitable
Plus methane is a much stronger greenhouse gas than CO2, even with the shorter lifetime. We seem entirely unable to reduce methane leaks or even measure them against natural gas usage.
But from a consumer perspective.
- where I live, electricity is much more expensive than natural gas, maybe double the cost per unit of energy
- and I pay even more for 75% renewables
- I just got a heat pump installed for my addition. So far temps have gotten just a bit under freezing and it has no problems keeping up
But that adds up to a reality where the cost threshold is mid-40°F’s. While it may be an argument in favor of solar, I don’t have enough unshaded roof to generate more than half my usage
I know your intentions are good, but this reads as a rather damning list of why a bunch of people are going to fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo.
