“If you violate the Geneva Convention, your people don’t get the protections of it” seems like a pretty reasonable way to justify the bombings tbh
In any case, there are some important considerations to be made here too:
After the horrors of Okinawa, US leadership expected a million casualties to take Japan itself, to the point where the Navy wanted to simply blockade Japan into submission. Given the Japanese civilians were already eating acorns and tree bark, and the military’s entire outward appearance was to never surrender, it isn’t unreasonable to assume Japan wouldn’t have given up.
Of course, the Japanese were refusing to surrender to the US in order to surrender through the USSR in hopes of getting a better deal (protect the emperor, no war crime trials, etc.). Of course, the Soviets invaded Manchuria and dashed all hopes of that, which, according to many people, was the real reason for Japan’s surrender.
It is a bit murky, but in response to the bombings and the invasion, there was a meeting on August 9th of the highest ranks of the Japanese government where it was determined that surrender was the only option and plans were drawn up to do so. However, on the 14th, there was an attempted coup by some army officers to continue the war, which failed after several high ranking officials refused to comply, among other things.
All of this taken together is not to say “the bombings were necessary,” but rather to show the situation as it developed, and how many different things could have gone wrong and dragged the war on for longer (side note: Japan still held a lot of territory and there were plans to liquidate POWs and the like in the event of surrender)
Was it right to vaporize thousands? In a vacuum, no, certainly not. But in the complex context of a war in which millions had already died and millions more still very well could have, its tough to say.
Justifying killing citizens is crazy
I do not wish to justify the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, if any good came out of it, I think showing the world the death, devastation and illness an atomic attack on a city can cause likely made world leaders pause before pushing the button. The Cuban Missile Crisis comes to mind. Would either party have backed down if no one had actually seen what even a relatively small bomb could do to a city?
It’s not like we didn’t know nuclear bombs are destructive and violent. That’s the point.
Do you think thing people understand things in the abstract just as well as encountering a concrete example?
World leaders do not do abstract thinking well.
World leaders do not do abstract thinking well.
[Citation required.]
World leaders don’t get to be world leaders if they do not do abstract thinking well.
It’s just many times they’re constrained by the politics on the ground.
[Citation required.]
All of human history?
World leaders don’t get to be world leaders if they do not do abstract thinking well.
Yes, that certainly sounds like Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un.
Good thing they never had any access to nuclear weapons.
All of human history?
Yes, all the way back to the first caveman, Ug. He was one hell of a son of a bitch, though he knew how to handle those pesky dinosaurs, so was a favorite of his cave.
World leaders don’t get to be world leaders if they do not do abstract thinking well.
Yes, that certainly sounds like Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un.
[Citation required.] [Again.]
“Many times *they’re constrained by politics on the ground”
[Citation required]
See? We can be pedantic too. Asking for citations does not validate your opinion.
“Many times *they’re constrained by politics on the ground”
[Citation required]
https://millercenter.org/issues-policy/governance/presidential-constraints
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001872677602900307
(There’s more if you need it.)
See? We can be pedantic too. Asking for citations does not validate your opinion.
Apparently whenever anyone ever challenges you on a point you’re making, they’re always just being pedantic. Can never be anything else. Your repeated attempts to “Kill the Messenger” is rude, and is getting old.
You never come back with something that proves your point, you always just go on the attack against the person that’s challenging you, as demonstrated in our current conversation.
I don’t suppose you could just actually back up your original point?
We’re supposed to be having a conversation, don’t take everything as a personal attack.
They did tests which clearly showed the destruction. They knew what would happen, but did not care. If it was your family and entire community being used as a test subject for American empathy, you wouldn’t have this take.
I have lots of Japanese family and friends, and none of them understand the horrors of WW2. As far as they were taught, America just randomly dropped nukes on them. They’re mad because they think of Japan as a victim, not a monster that needed to be stopped. They raped and pillaged everyone who wasn’t Japanese.
At least Germany teaches their kids about their atrocities in hopes that they never repeat it.
Interesting post. I was unaware of this “random attack” teaching. Is this present day curriculum? Japan isn’t closed off to Western internet and media. It can’t be that close of a secret, I mean they’re watching Oppenheimer right now. Not like China where they lose you in a prison colony if you talk about certain historical facts and the internet and media are fully censored.
I’m reminded of the Japanese guy who remained encamped on some spit of jungle in the Pacific Islands until something bananas like 1975 or something, and he had been out there with two others still holding their position, and had shot like 15 locals. Even when NGOs brought them newspapers, they assumed it was an American trick because they were taught and still believed that Japan would never surrender and would die fighting door to door to the last. It must have seemed paradoxical to them. They had to bring back the guy’s commanding officer fom a retirement home or something and fly him to the island to get the guys to come out. As far as I understand, that sort of rhetoric is viewed in Japan how anti semitic rhetoric is viewed by most Germans.
Personally I think those two bombs saved a lot of lives by destroying Japan’s will to continue prosecuting the war, and two showed restraint that the world has continued to this day. As I understand, some in America argued for more targets, like as many as 50(?) cities? If that had happened, Japan wasn’t going to be any more beaten than if they lost the will to fight and surrendered unconditionally after just two bombs, and I wonder what might have happened if that tradition of restraint didn’t exist all these years. You know, if it had been fifty, sometime by now some despot would have been saying “what’s the big deal, not like we did fifty.”
Japan was definitely a monster that needed to be stopped. But to say that made it okay to drop two nukes instantly killing thousands of civilians is not okay in any case.
thousands is tiny compared to how many japan killed
I think there’s a difference between killing Japanese military and Japanese civilians. With that logic the american civilians deserved dying on 9/11
I never said they deserved to be killed. They needed to be killed but they didnt deserve it. It just had to happen that way or they would have decimated their population fighting a losing battle.
Well. The war took 20.000 lives daily. The bombs took about 140k if i recall right.
If the war lasted 7 more days it would even out. The bombs ended it instantly.
The Japanese doctrine was to fight to the very last man, woman and child.
The Japanese are like everyone else. Only more. They had some powerful cultural settings to be able to do what they did.
That to me seems like the same logic being used by the israelis to justify killing the Palestinians. Its never justified to go after the civilian population and non combatants.
That to me seems like the same logic being used by the israelis to justify killing the Palestinians.
The difference though is the availability of precise targeting of the enemy versus the civilians.
Do you potentially end the lives of a million of your own drafted citizens just for more precise targeting of the enemy? One hell of a moral dilemma for any leader to decide.
Its never justified to go after the civilian population and non combatants.
Absolutely agree with this, and one of the reasons I’m upset personally with Israel right now is that they are fairly infamous for being able to precisely target their enemy when they want to, and hence what they’ve done in Gaza to the civilian population that had nothing to do with the conflict is just horrific.
Having said all that, there is a nuance in the two scenarios, they are not equal.
But to say that made it okay to drop two nukes instantly killing thousands of civilians is not okay in any case.
My understanding was they were actually attacking manufacturing for the war, it’s just that an atom bomb is not that discriminatory, and that all the military-only targets had already been bombed out of existence by that point.
Not saying it was right, just explaining it wasn’t as black-and-white as you express.
No, the targeting committee was very clear that the targets were selected mainly based on spectacle and effect.
They purposely kept a few cities in a “pristine” (or as close as possible) by disallowing other bombings so when the nukes were finished the before and after would look more dramatic.
The fact that they could just ignore these cities before dropping the nukes shows that the targets were of little to no military value
No, the targeting committee was very clear that the targets were selected mainly based on spectacle and effect.
That’s not my understanding at all, only just that having witnesses was a side effect, but not the primary reason.
From what I remember from watching documentaries there were military targets in the cities, I think (don’t hold me to it) bomb making factories.
Feel free to pass on some links if you know otherwise, as history is always a learning experience.(See edit below.)Edit: Looking at the Wiki page, under the section about targeting, it mentions this about Hiroshima…
Hiroshima, an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters
… and…
Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage.
The wiki article does mention what you’re stating as well, so in essence we’re both right, though I would still argue that the military objective was primary, and the spectacle as you call it was secondary, even if it was a close secondary.
Thats and interesting point, but it does make me think, why drop the nukes when they can just bomb the manufacturing hubs without incurring as much civilian death
why drop the nukes when they can just bomb the manufacturing hubs without incurring as much civilian death
That’s just it, they had been, for quite a while, but the Japanese would not capitulate.
So just bombing military targets with regular ordinance wasn’t enough. The type of bombing was a signal and a message in and of itself.
Right, just like 9/11 was justified due to U.S. imperialism.
Lol
Hitting too close to home?
Huh. It’s almost like history is written by the victor.
Just for the people who want to defend a nearly 100 year old tragedy for some reason. Here is a document from the US armed forces calling you a fucking idiot.
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945. Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war. and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. - The United States Strategic Bombing survey (European war) (Pacific War) https://ia801903.us.archive.org/33/items/unitedstatesstra00cent/unitedstatesstra00cent.pdf
Crazy, what’s next, a nazi movie released in germany?
As a german, I wish someone made some more of these. Because people seem to have forgotten about the horrors of WW2.
There have been so many movies and series just the past few years though… many really good too, and many that go pretty far in showing how horrible the nazis were.
Oppenheimer was not as good as it was made out to be.
The plot was muddy and jumped around between multiple time periods and the dialogue was confusing at shit.
Cinematography and acting was beyond amazing though.
Nonlinear narrative is not necessarily a bad thing, and neither is complicated exposition.
Of course. And in Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction it works extremely well. But here not so much. Unfortunately.
This is like someone saying a book is bad because they don’t understand some of the words.
All the things you mentioned were specific choices made, not failures.
Regardless, the plot was a chore the first time through and that’s not great storytelling. That has nothing to do with ‘not understanding words.’ I enjoyed the film, but it was certainly overhyped. Christopher Nolan is amazing, but this isn’t his best work from a storytelling standpoint.
Regardless, the plot was a chore the first time through and that’s not great storytelling.
I can disprove your assertion without even getting into the philosophy of storytelling simply via the fact that my first viewing of Oppenheimer was not laborious whatsoever. Nolan’s choice to dive into a more esoteric narrative of physics was my favorite part of the film.
You can’t prove the other person’s opinion on the movie is wrong just by saying you personally liked the movie.
I wasn’t confused because I had a hard time understanding the plot or science behind it it was confused because the plot was convoluted. It jumped around from time period to time period and often I wasn’t sure when anything was even taking place.
The only reason I was able to understand and keep up with the plot is because I already have a good understanding of that time period the science and the Manhattan Project in general.
And I’ve said it a dozen times and I’ll say it again just because someone likes something doesn’t make that thing good! People like shitty music, I like shitty music but it’s still shitty music!
You can’t prove the other person’s opinion on the movie is wrong just by saying you personally liked the movie.
Calling the first viewing of the movie a chore and the film’s storytelling bad was not an expression of opinion, but rather a pontification. It’s an attempt at declaring objective fact that is so demonstrably wrong that it falls apart even given anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately. you seem to be doing much the same in your comments. Your personal feelings about the movie have nothing to do with whether the movie was a success or failure.
The success of the movie is completely irrelevant in context to this discussion.
Just because you found it easy to follow along personally doesn’t mean that the person that you’re responding to is incorrect in this assessment of the movie.
You cannot prove that his opinion is wrong just because you like the movie.
I am asserting, in fact, that the movie had a convoluted and muddy plot, which it did because it was nonlinear. The plot was not handled well and it made the entire movie relatively difficult to watch. Your personal pontification on how much you enjoyed the movie is by definition anecdotal evidence which, as you stated demonstrably falls apart as evident.
The success of the movie is completely irrelevant in context to this discussion.
What? I bet you gave no thought to this sentence before you stated it. Of course it matters to this discussion. The entire rhetoric coming from both of you revolves around the alleged failures of the film’s methodology.
Just because you found it easy to follow along personally doesn’t mean that the person that you’re responding to is incorrect in this assessment of the movie.
I just explained the difference between subjectivity and objectivity and I’m not going to waste my time explaining how it applies to a claim of “bad storytelling” techniques again.
You’re just going to have to accept the fact that opinions are not accurate measurements of the efficacy of a methodology.
The bombings has to be seen in the context of the unimaginable horrors orchestrated by the Japanese state that had to be stopped, at almost any cost.
Almost… Another way to see it is they burdened future generations as an expedient measure to save the lives of the people now in the past. Another another way to look at the bomb is preventing another world war.
An interesting historical point is Japan had largely been defeated by the time the bombs were dropped. And they had the option to bomb an uninhabited (or very lightly) part of Japan’s territory as a show of force. But, instead they specifically chose to irradiate civilians.
They burdened future generations?
Yes, I would say the threat of dying in nuclear hell fire (if you were lucky) a bit of a burden.
Not trying to downplay what Japan did, but I don’t think that’s why they dropped the bombs. Russia was closing in and the US didn’t seem keen on having to divide up Japan like they did in Europe. I’d say it’s more likely civilian targets were bombed to put social pressure on the emperor and government to accept defeat.
These bombs don’t discriminate, so even put into context like you say, it’s still not a good argument
So much conjecture, but if you have any good sources, feel free to share.
For Truman, news of the successful Trinity test set up a momentous choice: whether or not to deploy the world’s first weapon of mass destruction. But it also came as a relief, as it meant the United States wouldn’t have to rely on the increasingly adversarial Soviet Union to enter World War II against Japan.
From https://www.history.com/news/hiroshima-nagasaki-bombing-wwii-cold-war
By the morning of August 9, 1945, Soviet troops had invaded Manchuria and Sakhalin Island, but there was still no word from the Japanese government regarding surrender.
From https://www.britannica.com/event/atomic-bombings-of-Hiroshima-and-Nagasaki/The-bombing-of-Nagasaki
Moreover, regular incendiary bombing raids were destroying huge portions of one city after another, food and fuel were in short supply, and millions of civilians were homeless. General Curtis LeMay, the commander of American air forces in the Pacific, estimated that by the end of September he would have destroyed every target in Japan worth hitting. The argument that Japan would have collapsed by early fall is speculative but powerful.
From https://www.britannica.com/topic/Trumans-decision-to-use-the-bomb-712569
I don’t know what Truman thought, but I do think saving US soldiers and avoiding The Soviet Union must have weighed in on the decision to nuke cities.
I know history.com isn’t that great of a source, but I have to go back to work.
Of course the bombing campaign was purposed to pressure the Japanese government to surrender, but that it was, as you claim, so that the US didn’t have to carve up Japan with the Soviets is a claim that lacks support, and I couldn’t find that claim in your sources neither.
This is of course just my opinion, but no horrors, imaginable or otherwise, that the Japanese could’ve possibly orchestrated at the time, with the means they had available, would’ve come close to the devastation caused by the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I disagree. The proliferation of Fascist ideology, in Asia alone, would’ve far eclipsed the devastation of two nuclear payloads.
You’re assuming that dropping those bombs was the only way to stop the Japanese.
Three things:
-This is moving the goal post of the argument that I was replying to and irrelevant to this conversation.
-Theorizing about the consequences at stake in the war doesn’t assume anything retrospectively. The decision to deploy nukes was not made with the knowledge we possess after the fact.
-It’s very likely that any other option that would finally result in the complete cessation of an enemy as ideologically tenacious as Imperial Japan would’ve far exceeded a price that was able to be paid that late into the second world war.
You made an implicit assumption, and that assumption is very possibly wrong. You are “theorizing about the consequences” just as much as me by making that assumption.
For example, I can think of at least one way the US could’ve tried to avoid the huge civilian death toll: drop the bombs in the ocean, target the japanese navy, close enough that the blast will be seen from the mainland , yet far enough to avoid most civilian casualties. Then tell the Japanese to surrender, or else they’re next. I don’t claim to say it would’ve worked for sure, but at least they would’ve tried.
He’s not theorizing, he’s summarizing decades of historians’ research. We know, for example, with the benefit of hindsight, that your idea would not have worked- it would have lead only to countless deaths via nuke, and then a long, slow slog through the meat grinder for troops and civilians.
How do we know this? Because we have Japanese communications from the time- and they basically sum up to something along the lines of “They don’t have the balls to use the bomb against people again.” with a side dash of “they don’t have more bombs to throw at people.”
Exploding the first one over water, the second one over a city on people, and then NOT dropping a third one because we didn’t have anymore would have proved them right, and without a surrender it would have lead to millions of dead Americans and Japanese. They made so many purple hearts preparing for that invasion in 1945 that we still haven’t gone through the backlog, 80 years later.
Now think about it without the benefit of hindsight. You know that culturally, they refuse to surrender. You know they see massive losses as completely acceptable, civilian, military, and suicide bombers. You know they want to try and grind the US down, make them give up because of the sheer number of troops dead. You know they’re trying desperately to negotiate a favorable surrender where they can save face, maintain their ‘experiments’, and maintain their military, which is exactly the sort of thing that lead to WW2 in the first place. Finally you know you only have two bombs. Use them wrong, and the deaths, crippling, and wounding of millions of your own country’s soldiers is directly on your head. Use them right, and you might get some surrenders.
Frankly speaking, dropping the two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki almost didn’t end the war. The second bomb was what finally changed the mind of the emperor, because he bought the bluff that if we had two we would throw at people, we had more. Even then, there was instantly a coup to try and halt the surrender process- and they thought this guy was literally an incarnation/speaker/appointed of god. That’s how much the military hated the idea of surrendering.
And finally, do keep in mind- every time the US bombed a Japanese city, they dropped leaflets warning the civilians to get out. By all accounts, they were actually highly effective.
To make it clear, dropping the bombs was a horrible thing. That it killed so many civilians who wouldn’t- or more likely couldn’t - get out in time, even if warned, is horrific. Leaflets are good and all, but that doesn’t meanyou have anywhere to go, or the infrastructure, and beyond that, the Emporer was executing anyone who tried to leave bombing areas. (Seriously, possession of a leaflet was grounds for immediate execution.) But the alternatives to dropping the bombs were judged, at the time, to be worse. And I believe that their decision to do so were understandable with the knowledge they had, the options they had, and the consequences to their own troops if they didn’t.
Very well written comment that will no doubt be under appreciated lol
Of course, thats your prerogative, but then, quite frankly, you don’t know enough about Japanese war crimes.
I’m sorry, what war crimes did the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima commit?
I’m sorry, what war crimes did the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima commit?
None, but the state that governed them did, and the people are part of the state. What’s you point?
My point is that targeting civilians is never okay. And if we are going to open the box to “well the state committed war crimes so civilians had to be targeted” I’d like to know your opinions on both 9/11 and October 7th, cause I bet there’s gonna be some inconsistency to your belief.
But that whole argument concedes the point that the nukes stopped Japan. They did not. Japan was already sueing for peace. They were willing to negotiate and we know that what they were and were not willing to give up lines up with what we did end up agreeing to post war anyways. The nukes were pointless on top of being abhorrent.
You are incredibly naive. Total war between industrialized nations, as happened in WW2, is won or lost on industrial capacity. States literally need to cripple their enemy’s ability and will to wage war, which means destroying industrial production, food production, access to safe water, and civil infrastructure. And that is why there should never be another great power war.
As for the USA’s use of nuclear weapons in Japan, they weren’t used to “win” the war. As you say, the Japanese were effectively beaten. Nukes were used to force an immediate surrender, saving millions of both American and Japanese lives.
But that whole argument concedes the point that the nukes stopped Japan. They did not. Japan was already sueing for peace. They were willing to negotiate and we know that what they were and were not willing to give up lines up with what we did end up agreeing to post war anyways. The nukes were pointless on top of being abhorrent.
You better have a good source if you’re going to make such a bold statement.
Fight war crimes with war crimes
Debatable. But as always with this topic; what else would force the Japanese surrender?
Maybe the fact they were already sueing for peace? Maybe the complete distruction of their Navy and Air forces? Maybe the blockaid we had on the island? Maybe the fact they were already sueing for peace?
Oh boy, fun! By all means, provide a source that states that Japan would have surrendered irrespective of the atomic bombings. This could be amusing…
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945. Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war. and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. - The United States Strategic Bombing survey (European war) (Pacific War) https://ia801903.us.archive.org/33/items/unitedstatesstra00cent/unitedstatesstra00cent.pdf
Here’s a whole video essay on the topic
https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?si=67gvnic_eEXJRAPQ
Japan was already asking for peace but the US was turning them down.
It’s fine to believe that — I’ve been wrong before, too.
Look up the Rape of Nanking. Studying that alone made me believe the bombs were warranted. That’s not even including Unit 731, and the fact that the Japanese government still will not acknowledge their attrocities.
The bombs were a sad necessity to stop the monstrosities.
Thanks for actually pointing out a specific atrocity committed by the Japanese, which did result in higher casualties than the bomb, though it happened over months rather than minutes, but ok, I’ll accept it.
Still, the point is, what atrocities were the Japanese capable of perpetrating at the time the bombs were dropped, that were prevented by it, and couldn’t have been prevented in a different way. There’s a big chance that the Japanese were going to surrender anyways, and if not, maybe just the threat of dropping the bomb (maybe, say, after a demonstration at sea or otherwise away from civilians) would’ve been enough.
What does that atrocity have to do with the civilians who were nuked?
It has to do with them in that their government would only listen to the sound of their screams. That was the only way to stop them.
Except the government didn’t give a shit about the peasants or they would have surrendered earlier when so many were dying from previous bombings and the war was already obviously hopelessly lost. Let’s pretend what you say is correct, do you think Americans should get nuked because of the US carrying out the Iraq invasion and occupation along with the many other war crimes that the US carries out on a regular basis? We’ll find out just how much the government cares about these screams.
Maybe not nuked because the invasion of Iraq was a far cry from Unit 731 alone, but America certainly fucked around and found out with 9/11. The government very much cry over the screams of those affected by 9/11 as well.
