And many of them voted for the guy who said he had “concepts of a plan” to maybe fix it, if it can be done better. So them being unhappy about it doesn’t mean much when we are about to get a government that is actively hostile to improving any kind of health care for anyone ever.
Yeah, Dems really have a lot of work to do to earn back the trust of most Americans.
Literally no one I know believes anything they say (or I say about them) or at best they’ll think it’s all performative (which they’re mostly right about). Most folks just don’t really care about news/politics and live normal American lives and feel the struggle. It’s mind blowing to me that our messaging was about how great the economy is and how much better is. Literal insane shit to most working class people.
Instead of saying the economy is great, they should use another word for what they mean, which is specifically like the rate of inflation/cost of very specific things or like a very specific unemployment rate. Whereas when regular people hear economy, they think of more abstract things like money in their pocket/savings, the cost of groceries, their ability to plan for the future based on stable finances, or even the increasing APR on the credit cards they owe (something we choose to ignore but many struggle with) - none of that shit is great, it’s literally worse than ever. lol
I feel like they would have fared better if they went all in on the “corporations are gouging consumers” line and not try to convince people with GDP figures or the unemployment rate.
This is exactly the problem. The Dems hyperfixated on how well “the economy” was doing as some of kind of abstract entity, instead of acknowledging that none of those metrics actually represent a truly healthy economy. There’s more money, but it’s all going to the wealthy. There’s more employment, but being employed means Jack Shit if you’re working three jobs and still can’t make rent.
Successive Dem and GOP governments have spent decades overseeing the creation of an economy that has destroyed the livelihood of the average person (and the same has happened all across the neoliberal world). I’ve seen it said, accurately, that “poor” in the eighties was vastly more comfortable than poor today. Never forget that the Simpsons were supposed to be an average working class family struggling to get by. The Frank Grimes episode lampooned how the Simpsons basic existence had already transformed into one of relative luxury, and that aired in '97. It’s gotten so much worse since then.
People may be ignorant and easily lead, but they still know how much money is in their bank account. You will never ever win elections by telling voters they’re not actually poor because GDP growth is up.
The solutions Trump offered to these problems are objectively terrible, built on ignorance and outright lies. But he offered solutions. The Dems looked at a house full of people actively burning to death and said “What are you on about, there’s no fire. You’re stupid.”
Against that, the GOPs ideas didn’t have to be good. They just had to be different. The average voter figured that there if there was even a 1% chance that Trump made things better, that was still better odds than the Dems were giving them. Most of them didn’t even bother looking at the details of Trump’s plans, they just figured “Hey, he apparently has a plan, the other guys clearly don’t, so let’s go with that.”
Not sure I agree with the premise that people voted for Trump because he talked about solutions, but this does illustrate the complete disillusionment I experienced (and likely others) when realizing that in order to vote against the insane felon, I voted for the establishment who would change nothing.
The Kamala campaign was very careful to NOT say that the economy was doing great. It was Biden who essentially had this as his campaign strategy. I wonder why this piece of misinformation is so persistent on this platform. It is always mentioned by people without reference to a source.
Sorry for the super slow response. Just got saw ur link.
I believe we have an extraordinary opportunity to make our middle class the engine of America’s prosperity, to build a stronger economy where everyone, everywhere has a chance to pursue their dreams an aspirations, and to ensure that the United States of America continues to out-innovate and out-compete the world,” said Harris
Imo, this is a silly and ridiculous thing to say. The economy is absolute shit, it’s not strong it’s worse than it’s ever been. She should’ve said, “to fix this absolutely broken, failed system that serves only the very wealthy” or something like that.
Also, I said Dems - I never even specified Harris. I had literal conversations with libs on Lemmy downvoting me for saying the economy was shit despite inflation being down and unemployment supposedly being low like I was going against the accepted talking point. The metrics economists use seem purposefully irrelevant,;most Americans don’t really give a shit about those things. This is how you have most Americans cheering for a CEO’s murderer.
I mean, really, a “strong economy”? What a joke at best, but what a backhanded insult to anyone struggling in the working class at worst.
That said, happy holidays!! We’ll figure this out together!
Wow, that’s some special nitpicking, and hyperbole. Saying that something should become stronger does not imply that it is currently strong. For instance, I think that you could build a stronger argument. See what I did there?
As for the statement that the economy is worse than it has ever been, I guess the Great Depression would like to have a word with you (among many other times).
C’mon dude, the great depression? I’m obviously talking about our lifetimes. Was that a joke? Are you over 100 (and using Lemmy! wow)? More relevant to our chat, do you think the average dumbass American voter compares their life to people living 100 years ago or smth?
Sure, I’m totally the one nitpicking here.
Ok, let’s take a step back. I said Dems messaging on the economy sucked. Then, you shilled for brought up Harris and said her messaging was fine or maybe great - it obviously wasn’t since she lost and most voters cited the economy and/or inflation as their biggest concern (key data we should maybe consider here). You then linked an article quoting her. Let me know if I missed what you wanted me to see. Are you trying to say you believe that most Americans would’ve been swayed, or convinced she would really fix the economy?
We should try to understand the people we’re talking to in a conversation. It’s not productive to converse if you misunderstand or misrepresent their statements. So far this doesn’t seem very productive
You’ll note that’s very relevant here where what economists mean when they say economy (inflation rate/unemployment) is very different from what most working class Americans mean when they use the word (inflation impact/social mobility/monthly budget). Let me know if that’s not clear. It’s similar to how scientists use theory very differently to most laymen.
You should add to it that he claimed he will have a plan within a week or so, for the past 8 years, while antivax RFK Jr. will be health minister next month.
If you don’t like it, why vote to empower the rich and mega corps at the cost of the other 99% of the population?
Trump is objectively worse than Kamala. But don’t fool yourself. There is no real difference between the two on healthcare. Neither had any real plans to make any real reform. Biden has a trifecta, and he didn’t do shit. Kamala explicitly ran as Biden 2.0.
Of course there’s a difference. Among others vaccines might soon be banned. Think also about women’s healthcare (abortion etc.). But yeah, if you are thinking about systemic positive change she likely would not have done much.
And many of them voted for the guy who said he had “concepts of a plan” to maybe fix it, if it can be done better. So them being unhappy about it doesn’t mean much when we are about to get a government that is actively hostile to improving any kind of health care for anyone ever.
Yeah, Dems really have a lot of work to do to earn back the trust of most Americans.
Literally no one I know believes anything they say (or I say about them) or at best they’ll think it’s all performative (which they’re mostly right about). Most folks just don’t really care about news/politics and live normal American lives and feel the struggle. It’s mind blowing to me that our messaging was about how great the economy is and how much better is. Literal insane shit to most working class people.
Instead of saying the economy is great, they should use another word for what they mean, which is specifically like the rate of inflation/cost of very specific things or like a very specific unemployment rate. Whereas when regular people hear economy, they think of more abstract things like money in their pocket/savings, the cost of groceries, their ability to plan for the future based on stable finances, or even the increasing APR on the credit cards they owe (something we choose to ignore but many struggle with) - none of that shit is great, it’s literally worse than ever. lol
I feel like they would have fared better if they went all in on the “corporations are gouging consumers” line and not try to convince people with GDP figures or the unemployment rate.
This is exactly the problem. The Dems hyperfixated on how well “the economy” was doing as some of kind of abstract entity, instead of acknowledging that none of those metrics actually represent a truly healthy economy. There’s more money, but it’s all going to the wealthy. There’s more employment, but being employed means Jack Shit if you’re working three jobs and still can’t make rent.
Successive Dem and GOP governments have spent decades overseeing the creation of an economy that has destroyed the livelihood of the average person (and the same has happened all across the neoliberal world). I’ve seen it said, accurately, that “poor” in the eighties was vastly more comfortable than poor today. Never forget that the Simpsons were supposed to be an average working class family struggling to get by. The Frank Grimes episode lampooned how the Simpsons basic existence had already transformed into one of relative luxury, and that aired in '97. It’s gotten so much worse since then.
People may be ignorant and easily lead, but they still know how much money is in their bank account. You will never ever win elections by telling voters they’re not actually poor because GDP growth is up.
The solutions Trump offered to these problems are objectively terrible, built on ignorance and outright lies. But he offered solutions. The Dems looked at a house full of people actively burning to death and said “What are you on about, there’s no fire. You’re stupid.”
Against that, the GOPs ideas didn’t have to be good. They just had to be different. The average voter figured that there if there was even a 1% chance that Trump made things better, that was still better odds than the Dems were giving them. Most of them didn’t even bother looking at the details of Trump’s plans, they just figured “Hey, he apparently has a plan, the other guys clearly don’t, so let’s go with that.”
I think I really agree with you here. Trump may have only had concepts of a plan but the Democrats denied even needing a plan in the first place.
Not sure I agree with the premise that people voted for Trump because he talked about solutions, but this does illustrate the complete disillusionment I experienced (and likely others) when realizing that in order to vote against the insane felon, I voted for the establishment who would change nothing.
The Kamala campaign was very careful to NOT say that the economy was doing great. It was Biden who essentially had this as his campaign strategy. I wonder why this piece of misinformation is so persistent on this platform. It is always mentioned by people without reference to a source.
Let me add a reference to break this spell: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/25/harris-opportunity-economic-plan-middle-class
Sorry for the super slow response. Just got saw ur link.
Imo, this is a silly and ridiculous thing to say. The economy is absolute shit, it’s not strong it’s worse than it’s ever been. She should’ve said, “to fix this absolutely broken, failed system that serves only the very wealthy” or something like that.
Also, I said Dems - I never even specified Harris. I had literal conversations with libs on Lemmy downvoting me for saying the economy was shit despite inflation being down and unemployment supposedly being low like I was going against the accepted talking point. The metrics economists use seem purposefully irrelevant,;most Americans don’t really give a shit about those things. This is how you have most Americans cheering for a CEO’s murderer.
I mean, really, a “strong economy”? What a joke at best, but what a backhanded insult to anyone struggling in the working class at worst.
That said, happy holidays!! We’ll figure this out together!
Wow, that’s some special nitpicking, and hyperbole. Saying that something should become stronger does not imply that it is currently strong. For instance, I think that you could build a stronger argument. See what I did there?
As for the statement that the economy is worse than it has ever been, I guess the Great Depression would like to have a word with you (among many other times).
C’mon dude, the great depression? I’m obviously talking about our lifetimes. Was that a joke? Are you over 100 (and using Lemmy! wow)? More relevant to our chat, do you think the average dumbass American voter compares their life to people living 100 years ago or smth?
Sure, I’m totally the one nitpicking here.
Ok, let’s take a step back. I said Dems messaging on the economy sucked. Then, you
shilled forbrought up Harris and said her messaging was fine or maybe great - it obviously wasn’t since she lost and most voters cited the economy and/or inflation as their biggest concern (key data we should maybe consider here). You then linked an article quoting her. Let me know if I missed what you wanted me to see. Are you trying to say you believe that most Americans would’ve been swayed, or convinced she would really fix the economy?We should try to understand the people we’re talking to in a conversation. It’s not productive to converse if you misunderstand or misrepresent their statements. So far this doesn’t seem very productive
You’ll note that’s very relevant here where what economists mean when they say economy (inflation rate/unemployment) is very different from what most working class Americans mean when they use the word (inflation impact/social mobility/monthly budget). Let me know if that’s not clear. It’s similar to how scientists use theory very differently to most laymen.
You should add to it that he claimed he will have a plan within a week or so, for the past 8 years, while antivax RFK Jr. will be health minister next month.
If you don’t like it, why vote to empower the rich and mega corps at the cost of the other 99% of the population?
Trump is objectively worse than Kamala. But don’t fool yourself. There is no real difference between the two on healthcare. Neither had any real plans to make any real reform. Biden has a trifecta, and he didn’t do shit. Kamala explicitly ran as Biden 2.0.
Of course there’s a difference. Among others vaccines might soon be banned. Think also about women’s healthcare (abortion etc.). But yeah, if you are thinking about systemic positive change she likely would not have done much.