I have absolutely no idea where you think I said this. I think you’re shadowboxing someone else.
This is what I was saying about your definition of “liberal” being shifty in a way where it can change to support whatever you’re trying to argue at any given time
It’s not being cagey, it’s just not a description or list of policy positions. You even just said that the framework has changed a bunch of times since Locke. It’s an ideological framework for democratic systems of governance, and i’ve repeatedly explained why that framework is problematic.
As the source you sent me pointed out, the definition has changed over time,
Yup.
and since then more radical alternative has emerged, which “liberalism” often opposes.
Marxism-Leninism is at odds with Trotskyism, but they’re both ‘marxist’. Liberalism describes a bunch of different particular denominations of the same underlying framework. Does that make sense?
That’s what MLK was saying.
Err, no? MLK was criticizing moderate liberals who were claiming to agree with the civil rights on principle but were complaining about the inconvenience of the demonstrations, arguing (much like liberals in 2024 were) that they should wait for a better season. He wasn’t complaining about libertarians, he was complaining about the ‘progressives’ who were standing in the way of liberation.
But at the time liberalism emerged, there was aristocracy or nothing.
Kind of? I mean there had been plenty of democratic systems since the Greeks and Romans, but broadly speaking, sure. John Locke was considered quite radical at the time, but liberalism as it came into focus after the french revolution took on a considerably more ‘moderating’ focus. But while Locke was certainly a radical at the time, his foundation is most closely related to classical liberalism and libertarianism today, both broadly reactionary and “conservative” in the modern american sense. The ‘social’ liberalism you’re most familiar with probably didn’t start taking shape until at least Kant in 1784, or more reasonably 1789 with Bentham. All of them, though, still centered around ‘individual liberty’ and framed their thoughts on democracy around it. All of the formative problems with liberalism that i’ve described has been there since the founding.
Like I said, it seems like your whole concept of it is as a limiting factor on progressive movements (which is certainly an element in the modern day), but that’s not the whole of liberalism and those progressive movements didn’t even exist in the beginning form of it. Liberalism was the progressive movement
That isn’t my whole concept. Liberalism being a framework for the limits of the ideal democratic system is only it’s reason for being, but that’s not what it is. It’s a set of political ideals that centers around the liberties of the individual. That applies just as much to modern progressives as it does to Locke and libertarians.
and then you proceed to explain to me why I take issue with the uncommitted movement.
Because your understanding of the uncommitted movement, and how protest is meant to work in-general, is quite limited. People expressing discontent with democrats online is an extension of that movement. So is asserting the reality of how that issue was shaping their unpopularity at the time - both of which you have been critical of, even in your own examples. You’ve expressed concern with that type of messaging ‘influencing voters’, even though bringing those issues into the public conversation is precisely the point of protest. You repeatedly assert your utilitarian calculus on others who are expressing despair with their options. Admittedly I am making a broader assessment of your intentions than you’ve explicitly stated, but you’re still misunderstanding the issue with liberalism i’m describing. It’s not a set of policy positions or opinions
I am asking you a question about your definitions, using various specific referents (myself, congressional Democrats, Bernie Sanders, Biden, users on Lemmy who are accused of being liberals)
Liberalism is a way of understanding political organization that centers around individual liberty and abides by a system of ideals that are together functionally incapable of resisting fascism. I don’t know how much more explicit I can be. Sometimes someone with progressive positions can be a liberal, especially when they abandon them in favor of protecting liberal institutions. I can’t tell you what category every person or user fits in because I don’t have some magic 8 ball that tells me.
What I am saying is how some of your definitions fall apart or become contradictory once you have to apply them to specific people yes or no, and then defend the application of the label to those specific people.
I know what you’re complaining about. I’ve been trying to tell you that it isn’t a matter of policy, it’s a matter of ideology. The policies that result from liberal thinking are not always consistent, because they are situationally dependent on opposing forces. Is Biden a liberal? Yes. Is Sanders a liberal? Probably not, but on occasion it can seem like it. Schumer? Pelosi? Jefferies? Harris? 100% certified. And not because they hold specific positions, but because the rationalization of those positions abide by liberal principles (does this or that policy or action infringe on individual liberties? Does this or that policy grant me greater influence to protect individual liberty? Does this or that policy depend on the practicalities of a capitalist system of governance?).
Which is why I think it’s a bad idea to use “liberal” as a key part of your argumentative style.
Well it certainly seems to frustrate you, but I think that has more to do with your political framework necessitating clear declarative categories than with the coherence with my definition of liberalism.
Does that make sense?
Frankly? No. It might frustrate your understanding of the world but it in no way hinders my own.
I have absolutely no idea where you think I said this. I think you’re shadowboxing someone else.
It’s not being cagey, it’s just not a description or list of policy positions. You even just said that the framework has changed a bunch of times since Locke. It’s an ideological framework for democratic systems of governance, and i’ve repeatedly explained why that framework is problematic.
Yup.
Marxism-Leninism is at odds with Trotskyism, but they’re both ‘marxist’. Liberalism describes a bunch of different particular denominations of the same underlying framework. Does that make sense?
Err, no? MLK was criticizing moderate liberals who were claiming to agree with the civil rights on principle but were complaining about the inconvenience of the demonstrations, arguing (much like liberals in 2024 were) that they should wait for a better season. He wasn’t complaining about libertarians, he was complaining about the ‘progressives’ who were standing in the way of liberation.
Kind of? I mean there had been plenty of democratic systems since the Greeks and Romans, but broadly speaking, sure. John Locke was considered quite radical at the time, but liberalism as it came into focus after the french revolution took on a considerably more ‘moderating’ focus. But while Locke was certainly a radical at the time, his foundation is most closely related to classical liberalism and libertarianism today, both broadly reactionary and “conservative” in the modern american sense. The ‘social’ liberalism you’re most familiar with probably didn’t start taking shape until at least Kant in 1784, or more reasonably 1789 with Bentham. All of them, though, still centered around ‘individual liberty’ and framed their thoughts on democracy around it. All of the formative problems with liberalism that i’ve described has been there since the founding.
That isn’t my whole concept. Liberalism being a framework for the limits of the ideal democratic system is only it’s reason for being, but that’s not what it is. It’s a set of political ideals that centers around the liberties of the individual. That applies just as much to modern progressives as it does to Locke and libertarians.
Because your understanding of the uncommitted movement, and how protest is meant to work in-general, is quite limited. People expressing discontent with democrats online is an extension of that movement. So is asserting the reality of how that issue was shaping their unpopularity at the time - both of which you have been critical of, even in your own examples. You’ve expressed concern with that type of messaging ‘influencing voters’, even though bringing those issues into the public conversation is precisely the point of protest. You repeatedly assert your utilitarian calculus on others who are expressing despair with their options. Admittedly I am making a broader assessment of your intentions than you’ve explicitly stated, but you’re still misunderstanding the issue with liberalism i’m describing. It’s not a set of policy positions or opinions
Liberalism is a way of understanding political organization that centers around individual liberty and abides by a system of ideals that are together functionally incapable of resisting fascism. I don’t know how much more explicit I can be. Sometimes someone with progressive positions can be a liberal, especially when they abandon them in favor of protecting liberal institutions. I can’t tell you what category every person or user fits in because I don’t have some magic 8 ball that tells me.
I know what you’re complaining about. I’ve been trying to tell you that it isn’t a matter of policy, it’s a matter of ideology. The policies that result from liberal thinking are not always consistent, because they are situationally dependent on opposing forces. Is Biden a liberal? Yes. Is Sanders a liberal? Probably not, but on occasion it can seem like it. Schumer? Pelosi? Jefferies? Harris? 100% certified. And not because they hold specific positions, but because the rationalization of those positions abide by liberal principles (does this or that policy or action infringe on individual liberties? Does this or that policy grant me greater influence to protect individual liberty? Does this or that policy depend on the practicalities of a capitalist system of governance?).
Well it certainly seems to frustrate you, but I think that has more to do with your political framework necessitating clear declarative categories than with the coherence with my definition of liberalism.
Frankly? No. It might frustrate your understanding of the world but it in no way hinders my own.