It’s like every time there’s a war everybody forgets how fucking long they take. WW2 took six years. The Vietnam War took almost 20 years, same with the Afghanistan War. Anybody expecting anything solid within the next couple years is delusional. Ukraine is in it for the long haul.
That’s not strictly true. On the short end, there was the six-day war. On the long end, there was the hundred years’ war.
Putin was clearly aiming for the short option, but then I suppose most belligerents usually are.
I’d actually love to see a graph that shows the distribution of lengths of various wars
“We’ll fight til the last Ukrainian!” - libs
“We shouldn’t help the rape victim and they should hope that it’s over quickly. Also, it’s actually not rape, it’s a special sexual operation and they deserved it.” - Tankies
Funny how if you’re against another endless war you’re a tankie and support Putin…
I’m neither a tankie nor I support Putin. But I also don’t support NATO and the Empire.
But just as a note, most “tankies” don’t support Russia and know Putin is a conservative capitalist. I mean he is the direct result of the dismantling of the USSR by internal revisionists (tsarists and capitalists) and the CIA.
But again, it’s the Iraq war all over again. And you libs are doing THE SAME THING. It’s hilarious.
„Libs“ we’re against the Iraq war. It divided the US population and the whole western world. Never listened to American Idiot?
I’m confused. You want us to protest against one sort of imperialism, but not the other?
I think you’re remembering incorrectly bro… After 9/11, if you didn’t support invading any vaguely Muslim country you were a traitor. Fucking libs on TV were cheering for killing Saddam and invading Iraq, dismissing any attempts to question why would that even make sense as weak-spined traitorous behaviour.
Also, how can you say that while you support a never ending war in Ukraine?
Is Russia imperialist? Yes. Is this invasion a tragedy? Yes. Did it happen, and will continue to happen for a long time in good part because of the US? Fuck yes as well.
I don’t support Russia invading or winning the war. I don’t support NATO breaking its promises and meddling in Eastern Europe propping up Nazis.
The US Empire is directly responsible for Putin, in the first place. And it’s now directly responsible for the extreme right in Ukraine.
What anyone who’s actually against war wants is for the US Empire to fall and NATO to be dismantled. For Putin to fall and the Russian people to have freedom again. For the Nazis in Ukraine to not have power anymore.
If you support sending billions in weapons to Ukraine (as fucking debt, Ukraine will be in debt to the US and Europe for centuries…), if you support war games in South Korea, Taiwan, if you complained when Biden left Afghanistan… you’re literally a war hawk.
You blathering fool. I’m not your bro and never will be.
When you see a school bully who fights a smaller kid who doesn’t want to give up his lunch money, what do you do? You are the kind of person shouting at the victim to comply to avoid any further bloodshed, right? You’re fucking filth. I think I even watched a Star Trek episode about your fucking kind, lol.
Just for your information: NATO has nothing to do with this. Other than being a scapegoat of course. Quite the opposite, if Ukraine was part of NATO, this war would never happened. Why do you think Poland and the Chech Rebublic were so eager to join it? NATO is a defense pact. But I know, people like you don’t care. NATO is the big boogie man you need to justify your political views.
And no, I don’t remember incorrectly. The Bush regime was republican. They faked evidence to attack Iraq. The were huge demonstations and turmoil Google the Dixie Chicks, listen to American Idiot. I’m not american. I’m german. We were one of the countries who were part of a so called “axis of evil” because we didn’t agree with the war. Shut the fuck up.
I was always pretty left leaning. Never liked US-Imperialism since I got 16 and realised Tom Clancy Novels were pretty one-sided. But if supporting ukraine means I’m a Hawk, so be it. All I know is, I don’t want to be on your side!
Your comment truly reeks of “I’m pretty left leaning” lmao
It is 2023. I am being called a tankie for opposing the escalation of a needless slaughter engineered by the western military industial complex.
It is 2003. I am being called a Saddam lover for opposing the escalation of a needless slaughter engineered by the western military industial complex.
It is 1969. I am being called a commie and probably also racial slurs for opposing the escalation of a needless slaughter engineered by the western military industial complex.
Commie
it’s the Iraq war all over again
Oh so you’re against the invasion after all?
More than you guys it seems. You’re all salivating at the idea of Russians dying and this war never ending.
Putin could stop this war and thus Russians from dying at any minute. He’d just have to give up on imperialism.
I’d be happy if Russia would simply send its soldiers home.
Me too. We take Putin out, return the USSR, and then we dismantle the far-right apparatus in Ukraine as well. We close all US military bases and shut down NATO.
We then impose on the US strict international laws to never have a military, to interfere or invade another nation again, or it’s dismantled and given to all 3rd world countries it fucked over the past 100 years.
And shelling civilians in the Donbas is presumably the equivalent of putting on a nice dress in your metaphor?
Make extremely inappropriate and wrong rape comparison ⇒ Accuse anyone who disagrees of being a rape apologist ⇒ FUCK TANKIES!
Extremely normal and sound logic there, definitely not just vibe-based emotional manipulation.
Ask Prigozhin whether that shelling actually happened. You swallowed Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
OHCHR estimates that between mid-April 2014 and 31 May 2016, at least 9,404 people, of which up to 2,000 are civilians, have been killed as a result of the conflict. The vast majority of civilian casualties, recorded on the territories controlled by the Government of Ukraine and on those controlled by armed groups, were caused by the indiscriminate shelling of residential areas, in violation of the international humanitarian law principle of distinction.
Na better believe Prigozhin, that guy never told a lie or said anything that was totally wrong.
What do you believe your source to say, exactly? That Ukraine shelled indiscriminately? If so, you should read it again.
Yes it says that exactly, unless you think the “armed groups” shelled themselves.
There’s a lot of angry liberals replying to your post, so I thought I’d link a great video on how/why the war in Ukraine came to be:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8&si=gaMRzFwo5JP5RzeD
This channel is leftist but they aren’t communists, as far as I know.
Tldw: This war was completely avoidable. Had the US/NATO kept its promise to not expand eastward none of this would have happened. Even Biden said that 25 years ago. Americans groomed certain Ukrainians for political office, and prevented others from running. There was an opportunity to end the war last year on somewhat decent terms for Ukraine, but Boris Johnson rushed in to stop it from happening, promising massive support. But war exhaustion has caught up and Ukraine is running out of people, and western leaders are already starting to call for the end of the war — except this time it will be on russias terms and Ukraine is going to get fucked. Big western capitalists have had their fingers in this pie because there’s a lot of money to be made in the country. That’s it.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that Putins invasion was a horrific, imperialist move. Any commie you see protesting the war isn’t doing it because they support Russia (Russia is a capitalist country), they’re doing it because they don’t support NATO. We are often the makers of our own enemies here in the west. Viet Cong, Taliban, ISIS, and Russia were all created or shaped by western (mainly US) policies.
Seems like to you being a lib means not falling for badly researched, one-sided videos?
You didn’t watch the video did you? They don’t mention anything that
All you liberals give cons a lot of shit for being bloodthirsty war hawks but you froth at the mouth at the thought of war too. You’ll look at situations like what’s happening in Gabon and Niger, say “wow the French are fucked and they kind of deserve it for what they did to those countries”, and then develop an amazing blind spot for western imperialism in Eastern Europe.
Obviously this war shouldn’t have happened. Obviously Putin is an asshole. Obviously what’s happening in Ukraine needs to be stopped.
We (the west) made our own monster though.
We can hope Putin dies from being an old fuck and Russia gives up
The US is on its last legs though. It badly needed this win. The US falls before Putin dies.
What drugs are you on and where can I get some?
Clearly hasn’t compared the US and Chinese economic data
Lol literally every single line of that post is absolutely nonsense.
The US is on its last legs though.
Lol in what universe? By way metric is the most powerful nation in the world limping along?
It badly needed this win.
If we badly needed a win we wouldn’t be sending 30+ year-old surplus gear. Ukraine would have F-35s instead of the air force trying to pawn off A-10s because we’re retiring them and don’t want to break them down.
The US falls before Putin dies.
Unless he’s a Highlander there’s no fucking chance.
Everyone point & laugh at the sad tankie in this thread.
HexBear and brigading yet another Ukraine thread with misinformation and Kremlin propaganda, name a more iconic duo.
EDIT: It appears that I’ve triggered the horde.
It’s the second post on our /all/ page?
You’ve all got to get used to the way federation works. Because everyone is federated with different instances the /all/ page is different for different instances. This means that when a thread reaches /all/ on a specific instance you will get a lot of their users showing up at the same time. This is true of all the large instances, lemm.ee and lemmy.ml pour into our threads all at once when they reach the top of their feeds, but it’s different for every site so you get this outcome where a lot happens all at once.
So basically this is going to cause a world War of social media echo chambers
Echo chamber is when you encounter people that disagree with you
It’s pretty much exactly the opposite of echo chambers. Which is why these threads are usually full of shellshocked libs
Welcome to federation, enjoy your stayIt’s funny seeing the replies to your comment crying about “not brigading” but then the vast majority of the comments in this post come from hexbear users commenting tankie shit
It’s almost as if they completely lack self-awareness.
Lack of self awareness = when something is on our /all/ page ???
And why aren’t you responding to anything? So much for being a socialist, you have zero engagement with anything other than liberal beliefs and do absolutely nothing to defend your position or challenge yourself.
Lol, I’ve responded to plenty. Do you seriously expect me to respond to each of the 100+ comments that have been left by HexBear users? It’s not like any of you are capable of changing your mind about anything. Waste of time.
Yes? What do you think challenging yourself is?
Answer my points on your nationalist brainworms being completely at odds with any assessment of yourself as “socialist” at the very least.
Lol, chill TF out. I have much better things to do than spend hours arguing with weirdos on Lemmy.
And again, all I have done is said that I support Ukraine. I also happen to be a socialist. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around?
I have much better things to do than spend hours arguing with weirdos on Lemmy.
Don’t lie, weirdo
And again, all I have done is said that I support Ukraine. I also happen to be a socialist. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around?
Because you don’t support the people, you support the bourgeois state and your position boils down to “I am willing to kill hundreds of thousands of people to protect it.”
This is not socialist ideology. This is first and foremost nationalism, which variant of it I am as yet uncertain as you’ve said nothing about what your “socialism” entails. I am unable to assess whether you’re a nazi or a plain old liberal that pretends to be a socialist by saying you like welfare while still completely and totally supporting capitalism and liberal institutional design to maintain the bourgeoisie as the ruling class. The german gothic aesthetic you choose for your username certainly doesn’t help the suspicions I have over what you really are though, literally retvrn.
i don’t have time to engage in any actual points with people on Lemmy.I only have time to bait an entire community so i can dissmiss them as weirdos for commenting on my bait post
It’s almost as if
bot detected, report sent
Are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine is being ungrateful repeating Kremlin propaganda or are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine has a point repeating Kremlin propaganda?
Is Kremlin propaganda just ontologically what a Hexbear user says?
I’m referring to the concerning number of users from your instance who seem obsessed with parroting what has been confirmed to be Kremlin propaganda and lies spread through deliberate misinformation campaigns. Obviously, this isn’t all HexBear users, but you guys clearly have a general problem with this kind of stuff.
What are some specific examples of “confirmed Kremlin propaganda” are being posted by Hexbear users in this thread?
Do you seriously have to ask?
This post wasn’t difficult to find.
Acting as if ending the war is Ukraine’s responsibility, rather than one of the country engaging in a literal invasion.
Anyone who doesn’t take the 2014 referendum with an extreme grain of salt is slotting nicely into Russia’s current playbook.
I seriously don’t understand why so many of you dickride Russia, other than “west bad”. The current Russian government is antithetical to so many of the values you claim to champion.
https://hexbear.net/comment/3865920
Here’s another for the road.
EDIT:
Numerous comments people claiming that the Maidan Revolution was actually a US backed coup, with zero evidence provided outside of Kremlin and state operated mouthpieces of course.
Possibly the most egregious yet: apparently the Bucha massacre was a hoax. Remember all those videos we saw of Russian soldiers gunning down unarmed civilians? Apparently they all must have been doctored, or were actually Ukrainian soldiers dressed up as Russian soldiers gunning down their own people.
One of my close friends is a Ukrainian photographer/videographer who was among the first on the scene after the Russians left Bucha. You’ve very likely seen some of his photos before. I can only imagine the rage he’d feel if he were to read some of the bullshit that these comments are attempting to spread.
Honestly, my opinion of HexBear has reached a new low after this thread. I used to be against defederation, but now I can at least understand why people don’t want to be associated at all with your instance.
EDIT 2: This post was locally removed on HexBear. I think that says enough on its own.
You claim that these are examples of “confirmed Kremlin propaganda”. What sources and/or authorities confirm the opinions contained in these posts as Kremlin propaganda?
Haters gonna hate. Still though, they’ll need to be cordial if some of these critics are also paying Ukrainian bills. Being rude is the fast track to falling out of favor with foriegn taxpayers.
They’re tired and weary from the onslaught of war fringe to safe their country from Putins aggression. Any dig at their progress is a dig at morale that spreads not only through the ranks, but also to the general public. There is a time for constructive criticism, but that should be done in private with actual solutions offered by those criticizing. I understand their needs to be some decorum but you can’t blame them for what I would consider a mild retort as their countrymen die trying to retake their land everyday.
Yeah, but like, they are their worst countrymen. Nazis and such. No one in the war stands to win anything. They will still pay their landlords and the corrupt banks for the right to live in now freshly burned down houses. Wages will stay super low, the wartime reduction becoming a reconstruction reduction whenever it ends. Anyone from Ukraine who is able to escape the nazis ought to defect to Russia where they would be taken care of a little better.
You know what? I never thought I’d say this but I’m with Ukraine on this one.
This whole counter offensive insanity is so militarily nonsensical that it had to have been mounted to please the West with a “win” so that they’d stay in the war. Real Chiang Kai Shek committing the best of the KMT army to Shanghai to impress the Westerners energy.
The West is standing on the sidelines, supplying just enough equipment to keep the embers going and judging the ordinary Ukrainians going to their deaths by their hundreds.
Fuck the clowns in charge in Kiev and fuck the Nazi militias obviously. But at this point the men being sent to the front are old men and boys dragged off the street against their will. Sending them to die to appease the West is fucking sick.
This got an upvote?
Are you open to proposing your master plan?
Ukraine has been invaded. Are you suggesting they do not fight back?
NATO is not war. No NATO country has been attacked. Engaging against Russia directly would put NATO at war with a nuclear power. I cannot imagine that this is your plan.
Not just “the West”, but everybody is on the sidelines as far as direct engagement goes. Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can. Some to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Most have imposed crippling sanctions. So. “sidelines” is a bit misleading from that perspective.
Even Russia’s allies are “on the sidelines”. You certainly do not see much overt support from China. They have even maintained ( in fact stepped-up ) diplomatic relation with Ukraine.
Or are you trying to imply that the underlying cause of everything here is something other than Russia’s continued invasion? Everybody could truly go back to the sidelines if Russia just left.
The only other path is for Ukraine to win. Are you supporting that or not?
If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.
Zelenksy tried to surrender to prevent further deaths, and Boris Johnson refused to let that meeting happen because NATO isn’t finished using Ukranians as crash test dummies.
Zelenskyy tried to surrender and Boris Johnson stopped him?! Ooooookay… He maaaybe (all “unnamed” sources) expressed an opinion, which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.
To cast that as “Ukraine was stopped from surrendering” is just obscene … and yet another Kremlin talking point.
which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.
If the UK is convinced that you can’t negotiate with dictators, how does the UK keep entering into arms sales agreements with Saudi Arabia? Do the contracts just appear out of thin air at BAE?
Sigh.
I am referencing to a dictator that is hellbent on invasion of other countries. We had plenty of relations with Russia before they decided to invade Ukraine and they were a dictatorship before. We have plenty of relationships with China now and they are a de facto dictatorship.
The Saudis used their British weapons to bomb Yemen and create one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes in recent memory. The UK sold weapons to Saudi before, during, and after the Saudi involvement in Yemen.
Perhaps Russia should have merely bombed Ukraine to the point of starvation. Then they’d be a good dictatorship that the UK would be happy to carry out business negotiations with.
Don’t be ridiculous
Ukrainians are white
That’s only acceptable when it’s brown, asian, or south american people who’s country you’re destroying.
What’s going on in Yemen is incredibly complicated. I’m not condoning everything Saudi Arabia is doing there, far from it, but to call it out as a good vs evil war is frankly a simpleton view. Saudi is bad there. Everyone is bad there. It’s a huge mess. But I think it’s important to recognise that the Saudis aim is to restore order in a neighbourhood country, to prevent Iranian influence from growing and to suppress violent Islamic fundamentalism.
Ukraine has plenty of opportunities to win. It could have chosen to chart a more balanced position between the EU and Russia. It could have given the Donbass some independence referenda and just let them go. It could have actually tried to adhere to the numerous Minsk Agreements to deescalate and prevent war. It could have negotiated for peace while the Russians were pulling back after its previously more successful counter offensives.
But each time its leaders ignored the off ramp to peace and pursued delusional maximalist goals, egged on by promises of EU and NATO membership which even Zelensky acknowledged publically were just carrots dangled in front of Ukraine.
Now there’s no pathway to any sort of Ukrainian victory and the most realistic scenarios all involve Ukraine permanently giving up Donbas and Crimea. The only difference between the likely outcome now and just giving them a referendum in 2014 is a couple hundred thousand Ukrainian graves.
I’d respect the EU and NATO more if they had actually followed through with their promises to Ukraine instead of this Charlie Brown football bullshit.
The comment threads here are weird. Who, in their right mind, would ever support a country like Russia? It’s mind blowing.
Tankies.
Deride us as woke next.
Why would anyone do that? Wokeness is rad and cool, while tankies love to do fascist apologia, which is highly unwoke
Oh look, calling communists fascists
Surely people who do that aren’t supportive of double genocide theory, which Jewish holocaust scholars condemn as carrying water for nazism.
Every time I criticize tankies they:
- Lie about what I said
- Pretend I’m talking about all communists. If I wanted to do so, I would use the term “communists”. But I don’t see a reason to attack the group I myself belong to
- Try to “no U” with irrelevant insinuations
Oh, which successful communists are you talking about?
Also, double genocide theory being holocaust trivialization still applies as it refers to calling the USSR fascist, if you think it is an irrelevant insuniation take it up with the Jewish holocaust scholars.
As I said to the person below, learn reading comprehension or fuck off. I don’t want to engage in a conversation when I’m repeatedly being gaslit on what I said.
Imagine being proud of a t34. Oof
Your username is literally stuka. Also, remember when Germany had their asses destroyed by the red army? That was funny.
Haha, you think I’m gonna defend nazis? Nah, they were worse than the soviets, but not by much. You tankied are about equivalent to neo nazis in my book
You named yourself after a Nazi dive bomber.
Tankies claim to not be supporting Russia but only point out issues with Ukraine and believe every bit of info that comes out of Russia.
Hexbear never criticizes Russia except for all the times we criticize Russia https://hexbear.net/post/278334
It’s not supporting Russia to be critical of one-sided narratives or to call for peace for the sake of minimizing loss of life.
Russia is welcome to GTFO at any time.
The war was already going on before Russia sent troops in.
A compromise now is bad for russia, russia basically has to be able to extort Western Europe to not to be crippled for decades. Germany is apparently working to that end now.
It’s so fucking funny when the geopolitics understanders who have been drip-fed NATO propaganda state the clear opposite of reality and think they made an insightful comment.
Russia has all but won the military conflict, as has been made clear by this utter failure of a “counteroffensive.” Russia is doing better economically than before the SMO, despite the supposed economic wunderwaffen sanctions that only backfired and hurt NATO countries. Russia has only gained support by most of the rest of the world and has showed the global south that the US/NATO are indeed paper tigers. Russia has all the leverage now. So yes, for Russia to compromise right now would be bad for them because they don’t need to compromise, they can keep going as they have been and eventually have their demands met, or Ukraine/NATO can recognize they’ve lost and make a bid for peace by acquiescing to Russia’s demands before more lives are needlessly lost.
Ukraine on the other hand will be crippled for decades regardless of how things pan out. Ukraine is now deeply indebted to Western countries, has already had all national assets sold off, has had a major chunk of its working-age population killed or maimed, and is beholden to a fascist, nazi-worshipping government.
As for Germany, yeah they have been working to the end of hobbling themselves for decades too by allowing their remaining industrial capacity to be completely gutted, kowtowing to their US masters that bombed their infrastructure to prevent them ever again getting oil from ‘The Bad Country,’ they have irreparably removed nuclear power as an option even as they’re facing an impending energy crisis (in large part because of aforementioned no-oil-from-bad-country), and are right now also sliding towards right wing populism.
Ohh won’t someone think of the poor invading war criminals!
Ukrainians are dying too, including ones drafted against their will. Maybe you should fight in their place before asking them to die on your behalf.
Get out of your bubble. The majority of the world supports Russia. It’s an uncommon view in Europe/USA, but common everywhere else.
Also, being anti NATO expansion doesn’t mean you support Russia. That is a reductive world view.
Regardless of how many despots find Putin’s approach appealing, it remains fundamentally wrong.
Who said anything about despots? These are opinions of people, not rulers. Citizens of Africa, Asia, South America have suffered under US hegemony, so they view the Russian State different than you do.
The world isn’t as simple as Russia bad, US good.
O rly? Because I thought things were simple. I, like everyone who isn’t already fully on team hexbear, am an idiot. Please cite your sources.
I, like everyone who isn’t already fully on team hexbear, am an idiot
did they fix the emoji problem yet?
FREUDIAN SLIP
Please cite your sources.
What a surprise, a childish dipshit.
You sure are
All you’re doing is insulting people. This behavior is why
is a necessity.
