WOMEN ONLY COMMUNITY MEN PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT
I totally get the joke, and Pedro can only be a good thing (huge fan, pray daily that he adopts me). But I do understand why some men would find it insulting. What’s your thoughts?
WOMEN ONLY COMMUNITY MEN PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT
I totally get the joke, and Pedro can only be a good thing (huge fan, pray daily that he adopts me). But I do understand why some men would find it insulting. What’s your thoughts?
Lesbian here, so maybe not the target audience for this. However this kind of meme and discourse makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Like, really? Pedro Pascal is -the only nice guy- in the world, every other guy is trash? Too often I hear women speak about men as if they’re inherently bad people, rather than victims of the patriarchy just like them. It reeks of “that’s just the way men are” and “boys will be boys”, except now it’s being used to shame and admonish. Shame isn’t going to change mindsets, it’s only going to make people defensive. It’s not as if men are genetically assholes, but these kinds of memes sure make it sound like they are.
It bothers me because I have a son who will grow up to become a man (at least that’s how it’s looking right now). I worry about what he internalises when he hears that people expect he’ll grow up to be a sexist asshole, just because he was born a boy. I have to defend against that just like I defend my daughter when sexism is directed at her, because frankly that’s exactly what it is. If I were told from a young age that the default expectation is I’ll grow up to be trash just because I have a penis, why bother to do better? I’d probably also listen to the Tates and Petersons who make me feel good about myself instead.
I understand why women are angry and frustrated, they have every right to be. I’ve also been on the receiving end of sexist and frankly traumatic shit because I was born a girl. I just don’t feel like it’ll get any better by creating more division, more “us vs them”.
I agree. Male and female have skills that are different. And just like women men can be good or bad. If we want equality we have to consider we do t get that via shame, condescension or derogative statements.
The memes cute but pedro is one of many good men.
Sorry to dive into the mix here, but I’ve got a kind of genuine question, as someone who is having to play catch up on my femme socialization. I thought the “it’s not all men” response is sort of the classic incel defense? Like actually the safest approach for women is to assume “all men”. The comparison I’ve had success explaining to men is " how do you treat a gun you don’t know anything about?" To which they quickly respond with, “like it’s loaded”, and I can follow up with " right, because it could easily hurt or kill you." By this point most men are starting to see the connection. So its easy to complete the thought with, “most men could easily hurt or kill most women, so treating them all like a loaded gun is legitimately the safest option”.
This kind of came up in a comm I mod. A meme came up with the punchline basically being, " women don’t want to date fascists and want guys who punch nazis" and it got reported for “alienating men from leftist causes.” Like actually if humor like that makes you feel like an outgroup, I don’t think the joke was meant for you, and you night want to think about why the crowd you want to be “in” with finds the joke funny or relevant.
EDIT: To be clear, I very much seen your point with your son. I would want to find a way to prevent the pigeon holing too. There are definitely ways to have these conversations without making men feel like shit, but providing them examples of healthy role models, even if the example comes from a meme, is not a bad thing. I know my pre-transition self would have wondered, “what does Pedro Pascal do or say to make people think this” which would send me down a rabbit hole of his support for his sister and trans folk in general. His just completely level headed take after level headed take on hot issues as if they have easy and obvious answers. He genuinely spreads love at every turn, which is so far from the default behavior of most men women interact with.
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Yeah! I know gay guys that will literally say, “no it’s all men”. Like they aren’t even interested in women and they agree with the generalization 🤣
It’s weird… I like you comparison to guns but also I hate it. It really does make a point but I think it just enforces the bad generalization point?
NOTE: I’m autistic and miss the point sometimes (a lot) I’m more asking questions here than trying to claim I’m correct. I’m very open to the conversation.
There are lots of problems with it I think. Guns are tools. Tools used to kill and nothing else. Guns aren’t capable of thought and reasoning and so on. Guns should be treated as loaded as a respect think, not a fear thing. Guns kill when people use them to kill.
Men are not that. Men can be so many things. Also I’d assume more men have never even come close to hurting or killing women then those that have hurt or killed women. Women have also killed men. Some women don’t fear men.
Why treat things as an absolute when it’s a complicated spectrum like any other. Generalizations are just bad I think… They just kind of lead to tribalism in a bad way.
My brother pointed out something that happened to him. A woman crossed the street to not walk on the sidewalk where he was waiting for a bus. General advice we give out to each other, right? But then he asked how different would that be if he crossed to street if a black person was waiting for the bus? I’ll be honest I didn’t have an answer for him. Like if he did that people would call him racist for making a generalization, and I don’t think he’s wrong…
What’s different?
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You make some good points, but the statistics you provide are really lacking sadly. For example the victim rate is high. I wonder what the offense rate is, I’m assuming it’s much lower. A few rotten apples spoil the bunch taken to extremes comes to mind here.
I don’t deny that there are a lot of women who have been victims of abuse by men. But writing off half the human race seems like the wrong approach and absolutely a race to the bottom. Especially when we can do better and promote good behavior and a dismantling of the systems that cause this in the first place without alienating a non-problematic majority.
Again it’s not so much this meme. This is is mostly fine. Something to aspire to basically. I’m just not a fan of people making massive negative generalizations against other people. There are very few absolutes in life.
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Yeah I see what you’re saying. Agree even! (Also autistic so tone, and missing points and stuff like that, I also struggle) I am also here primarily to learn, not preach.
The only thing I’m pondering is your point about guns being a tool, not doing the killing themselves. I think that’s interesting. Like it’s an application of the saying “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” So the metaphor breaks down when the “treat every gun like it’s loaded” is applied to men. The only twist I’ll maybe add is that men are the gun and patriarchal capitalism is the person wielding it? Like men have been so conditioned by the ruling class, but I’m not going to really dig into my personal politics here, just seeing if that helps blend the two approaches.
Like I do not think every individual man is responsible for the lack of safety women understandably feel around men. I think “the system” is responsible for that, but it’s going to take active work on the part of men to undo that, otherwise it just functions as them playing along with it.
The crossing the street thing is interesting. This gets brought up in trans masc circles semi regularly. Trans men talking about hitting a point in passing where women cross the street to avoid them, and the discussion often comes down to, “I’m sad about it, but I get it, men suck.” I think the amount of societal healing that needs to happen for things like that to shift is immense. Basically I’m not sure exactly what is different, if anything.
I don’t think I really took a particular stance in this post, just kind of dropped info I have that’s loosely related to what we were chatting about…
Idk if I’m still making sense. Words are hard.
Yeah. You’re making a lot of sense.
At the end of the day I don’t have the answers or solutions sadly just more questions and doubts.
I fully understand why we use the language we do and the mass generalization and I hate it. Subtilty doesn’t get points across most of the time and hyperbolic arguments do and that also sucks.
You make such a great point with society meeting SO SO MUCH healing. I guess I just have this wish we would all just be better to each other and take people as they come. But then I see how you do that and surprise that one IS a bad person…
Just feel like we’re racing to the bottom. :(
Oof yeah. The race to the bottom is real :(
We have time and energy for nuance with people we care for and people we can’t avoid. Men are individuals with complex inner lives and nobody can appreciate that for 3 billion men on this planet or even, in my right now, the three strangers in the room with me.
We don’t need to, I won’t be talk to them and they won’t talk to me.
Without the nuance, we make generalizations.
Sorry for the delay, I’ve only just got the chance to sit down and reply. To your point about incels, how would you feel if someone making a meme saying “all women are gold-diggers”. How do you react to incels saying things like women are trashy and only want trashy men and not good guys, or women are weak porcelain dolls and wouldn’t survive without men. Would your reaction not be that not all women are like that? That most women aren’t like that? This is the same shit, the genders are just reversed. Is it any less true if the rebuttal comes from a woman arguing in good faith vs an extremist TERF? I’m not defending incels, but if they sound the same as someone making a good faith rebuttal, maybe it makes young impressionable men and boys think they might have a point. And if they’re right about that, what else might they be right about? This is exactly how people get sucked into cults and far right groups.
I feel your example with guns (while still a generalisation) is different from this kind of meme because it’s about appealing to empathy. This meme is not doing that, it’s using shame to supposedly get men to reflect and change. I argue it’s not very effective, and there are way better ways to do this. You share one example - appeal to empathy. I’ve seen memes praising men for positive actions they take (e.g. green flag memes).
This kind of discourse is also harmful to transmac individuals. I’ve unfortunately seen trans men being ostracized from the very communities they relied on for support as soon as they ‘pass’. Once they look just like other men, they are seen as a threat and are unwelcome. If this kind of divisive language and approach only impact those doing harm to women, then fine. But it’s not and it’s doing a bunch of collateral damage in the process.
It’s shouldn’t be hard to point out positive role models without resorting to belittling people. Most men have strengths (literally) most women don’t - let’s talk about how they can use those strengths to be a positive force in society. I see way more jokes and memes saying men are trash rather than talk about how they are can be important and positive part of the movement towards equality. Just like the LGBTQIA+ movement would never have made it as far as it did without the help of our allies (and trust me I’m not giving them most of the credit), we’re never going to get equality and freedom across genders if we don’t work on bringing men as our allies too.
I find this meme funny and generally light on the aggression, and more focusing on the praise, but I generally agree with you.
I hate that it’s become normal to use hyperbole and generalizations to stack whole groups. It alienated the allies. I feel the same about ACAB and any other gross generalizations.
The response is always like ZDL posted that “you’d have to be stupid to not understand it doesn’t mean everyone” but that’s the same defense racists use…
The fact these conversations pop up in the first place. Making the divide between people bigger and more extreme just doesn’t seem like the winning strategy. It feels like how the US treats criminals.
We could easily focus on praising good behavior without shitting on people.
I have brothers, I have a dad, I have some of the sweetest male friends. And them having to constantly second guess themselves and feel like they are public enemy number one simply for existing just sticks.
I would rather praise of perceived good behavior be the norm than aggression in general for bad behavior, especially if it’s gonna be so generalized.
Thank you, you were able to put the point I was trying to make much more succinctly and elegantly.
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Is defending people from unfair characterisation based solely on their gender “coddling” now? In the space of two comments you make the argument that the meme isn’t about all men, then tar them all with the brush of “primary perpetrators”. Do you really not see the problem? Yes, fight back against actual perpetrators, but don’t use a machine gun in a crowded room and take a bunch of other people with them. There are other ways to convince men to fight against the patriarchy (of which they are also victims!).
You may think no one is saying “all men”, but I promise you I’ve seen this very discourse online and irl. My question to you is, what do you hope to achieve with these memes? To voice your anger, or change people’s minds? I’m not defending those who perpetuate the patriarchy, but let’s not shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating men who would otherwise be on our side if they didn’t feel like they had to face an angry mob. Please, let’s not use the same weapons used against us for millennia - it’s not working and frankly I am concerned it is starting to actually backfire (see: young men throwing themselves into the arms of the far right). We are literally playing into the hands of those who want to divide us.
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It’s clear you’re not going to change your mind on this, so I’m tapping out. My last appeal to you is, if your end goal is for women and men to be free of the patriarchy, you should focus on actions and messaging that work to change people’s minds, and less on trying to be “right”.