That’s actually a super valid point, wow. Part of me kind of hates that this is the method the game uses to usher you into a Neutral run to begin with, but part of me also recognizes the sort of mad genius at work here guiding the player by their expectations.
Suppose I just got salty when I was seemingly unable to do things the obvious “right” way. I’m the kind of guy that will often rerun a checkpoint in a game until I get a gold medal. But you’re intended to fuck this up, it sounds like, a new player isn’t really even supposed to find out that you can progress without fighting Toriel?
I dunno. Still doesn’t explain the reaction from my friends (who told me to play the game blind, mind you). Maybe they all knew all the spoilers about it going in.
I still stand by my statement that this interaction could have been done a little better. But I better understand why it exists in the form that it does now. Thanks!
Still doesn’t explain the reaction from my friends
I think it’s just really easy to want to backseat-game there with how things are set up, unfortunately.
spoiler again juuust in case
Once you know for certain you can save literally everyone, all Neutral endings can seem like failed Pacifist runs, and people get up in arms about “messing it up” because they don’t want new players to miss the “real ending”, not realising that the game accounts for failure and expects you to be imperfect.
To be honest, I had no idea that this through-line existed until I watched a fully blind Neutral playthrough, but now that I do, I wish there was less policing about how to do things “right” so more people could experience the game like this.
I also think this is the reason why Toby Fox said he couldn’t “make another Undertale” when describing Deltarune - the secret that you can spare or kill every enemy is so out there that it’s put front-and-center in Undertale trailers, so another game with the same gimmick would be less impactful.
(side note; Deltarune is it’s own can of worms that I can’t wait to re-open once I actually have time to play through chapters 3 and 4)
a new player isn’t really supposed to find out that you can progress without fighting Toriel?
I think that goes for all major bosses, but it’s certainly easiest to kill Toriel. Papyrus’ fight takes a while, despite Undyne’s hints about “running away” it’s hard to connect that to having a red heart, Muffet literally wants to eat you, and you may not figure out how Mettaton’s popularity chart works.
As Flowey says (if you spare everyone in the Ruins), “But what will you do if you meet a relentless killer? You’ll die and you’ll die and you’ll die. Until you tire of trying. What will you do then? Will you kill out of frustration? Or give up entirely on this world…”
That’s actually a super valid point, wow. Part of me kind of hates that this is the method the game uses to usher you into a Neutral run to begin with, but part of me also recognizes the sort of mad genius at work here guiding the player by their expectations.
Suppose I just got salty when I was seemingly unable to do things the obvious “right” way. I’m the kind of guy that will often rerun a checkpoint in a game until I get a gold medal. But you’re intended to fuck this up, it sounds like, a new player isn’t really even supposed to find out that you can progress without fighting Toriel?
I dunno. Still doesn’t explain the reaction from my friends (who told me to play the game blind, mind you). Maybe they all knew all the spoilers about it going in.
I still stand by my statement that this interaction could have been done a little better. But I better understand why it exists in the form that it does now. Thanks!
I think it’s just really easy to want to backseat-game there with how things are set up, unfortunately.
spoiler again juuust in case
Once you know for certain you can save literally everyone, all Neutral endings can seem like failed Pacifist runs, and people get up in arms about “messing it up” because they don’t want new players to miss the “real ending”, not realising that the game accounts for failure and expects you to be imperfect.
To be honest, I had no idea that this through-line existed until I watched a fully blind Neutral playthrough, but now that I do, I wish there was less policing about how to do things “right” so more people could experience the game like this.
I also think this is the reason why Toby Fox said he couldn’t “make another Undertale” when describing Deltarune - the secret that you can spare or kill every enemy is so out there that it’s put front-and-center in Undertale trailers, so another game with the same gimmick would be less impactful.
(side note; Deltarune is it’s own can of worms that I can’t wait to re-open once I actually have time to play through chapters 3 and 4)
I think that goes for all major bosses, but it’s certainly easiest to kill Toriel. Papyrus’ fight takes a while, despite Undyne’s hints about “running away” it’s hard to connect that to having a red heart, Muffet literally wants to eat you, and you may not figure out how Mettaton’s popularity chart works.
As Flowey says (if you spare everyone in the Ruins), “But what will you do if you meet a relentless killer? You’ll die and you’ll die and you’ll die. Until you tire of trying. What will you do then? Will you kill out of frustration? Or give up entirely on this world…”