Good thing we (the US) lost the war, or this lady would probably have her own team of lobbyists running their country.
The death penalty is always wrong.
Murder is not a punishment and once you’ve stripped her of her ill-got gains there is no longer any reason to kill her.I hear you but if I’m honest, and tomorrow America announced it was going to execute every billionaire, I’m not going to put up too much of a protest.
Take the money, sure. Then they’re no longer billionaires and there’s no need to kill them.
In other words, you don’t murder disarmed prisoners of war.
During class war they are the enemy and deserve what comes to them. If taken alive and their weapon of war removed, they don’t need to be dealt with the same way.
Once they are no longer a threat you can work on rehabilitation and restitution.
First off, I agree with you.
But…second…I struggle with the rehabilitation bit. Some people cannot be rehabilitated. It is a hard truth I have learned, coupled with pain and regret, many times in my life. I’m just curious what you think the course of action should be at that point?
I’m not suggesting death/murder, but I do struggle with the idea that if they’re miserable, and the people around them are made miserable, and the people trying to help them are made miserable…what do you do?
Some people cannot be rehabilitated.
You can’t know that. You only have evidence for people’s inability to’ve been rehabilitated so far.
I’m just curious what you think the course of action should be at that point?
Not murder.
if they’re miserable, and the people around them are made miserable, and the people trying to help them are made miserable…what do you do?
…drugs?
You do everything you can for them (whilst making sure they’re not a danger to other people), give the caretakers / wardens plenty of time off, and you give them the option for assisted suicide. In my ideal world, everyone would have the option for assisted suicide though
I disagree. I don’t subscribe to a world view where every life is sacred. Society has a right to protect itself from persons that will always endanger other people and that includes killing them. However, it has been quite clear that we cannot guarantee that no innocent people are killed. And that’s why I’m OK with the death penalty only in principle, not in practice.
persons that will always endanger other people and that includes killing them.
You cannot know that, and if you have the ability to strap someone down and end their life, you have no need to do so since you clearly have complete control over their person.
I’m OK with the death penalty only in principle
You shouldn’t be. States qua arbiters of justice should not intentionally kill people under their control.
This is a discussion about personal morals. Some people think it’s OK to execute some criminals, others are completely opposed to that idea. There is no objective right or wrong here.
For you your arguments might be compelling, but they don’t convince me. I can have complete control over someone and still decide to kill them because I don’t want to bother with locking them up, for example. And who says a society should not kill? That’s not even an argument, just an opinion.
There is no objective right or wrong here.
No, the state killing people is objectively wrong.
Fucking lol. I love Lemmy. I’ve never seen such an obscure group of people speak in absolutes so consistently. Puts reddit to shame.
“I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG”
“I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD OR EVIL”
“I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG”
I don’t decide. The state murdering people is wrong. I just have the moral wherewithal to recognize the fact.
Which isn’t hard because it’s objectively true.
Hope this helps.
Ok, I’ll play along for a bit.
The state murdering people is wrong.
Prove it is wrong. Use facts and data to prove capital punishment is wrong.
The way these people affect so many lives negatively with their fraud is much worse than a person committing murder.
The literal misery they cause to so many people for their own benefit without a fucking iota of shame and their sociopathic behavior is enough to consider eliminating them from society.
The way these people affect so many lives negatively with their fraud is much worse than a person committing murder.
Irrespective how is two bad things better than one bad thing? I would think fewer bad things would be net better.
The literal misery they cause to so many people for their own benefit without a fucking iota of shame and their sociopathic behavior is enough to consider eliminating them from society.
You speak of “sociopathic behavior” while advocating state murder. 🤨
I know. It sounds fucked. But these people are a cancer on society. There’s very little that can be done to reform these people. And the problem is that capitalism rewards this kind of behaviour.
These people currently are ruling the world. If they aren’t the head of some large company, there the head of a government. Because of their large wealth, they have a huge influence on the policies. They’re basically dictating the laws that are governing them. It’s like playing Monopoly with your own made up rules.
You can’t stop those people any other way. The French understood this. When the price of food was out of reach, heads started to roll. Literally. Nowadays the people can’t be violent anymore. Heck, the mere act of peacefully protesting is met with police violence and oppression. How the fuck are we supposed to get the message across when those people have their own militia protecting them and their interests?
There’s very little that can be done to reform these people.
Nothing you have tried so far.
How the fuck are we supposed to get the message across when those people have their own militia protecting them and their interests?
Have you ever considered “Progaganda Of The Deed” to encompass modeling being better people than the opposition?
That’s the problem. There’s one side that’s trying to play by the rules and be nice because they have empathy. Then there’s the other side who lie, cheat, and break the rules for their own benefit without shame.
How the hell are you supposed to play the game and “be better” than the opposition, when the opposition is taking advantage of you?
There has to be clear and grave consequences to discourage them from abusing the system and the people. If it has to be the death penalty, then so be it.
I’m tired of our societies being run by a bunch of industry barons who own everything. Food barons, healthcare barons, banking barons, housing barons, you name it. The mega conglomerates that we can’t escape from who are literally destroying this planet and leeching off of everybody with made up excuses about the state of the “economy”. Having all the world’s fortune in the hands of about 10 people. We can’t stop this by playing nice and asking nicely. Not when they control governments with their financial influence or because they’ve become too big to fail. No. You build fucking guillotines and you execute the motherfuckers.
How the hell are you supposed to play the game and “be better” than the opposition, when the opposition is taking advantage of you?
You do that by not murdering them after you have taken power and over the means of production.
Having all the world’s fortune in the hands of about 10 people. We can’t stop this by playing nice and asking nicely.
Alright so you’ve seized all the money in the world and taken over all the land and machinery that enables production through the application of labor via militant witholding of the same. You and your comrades have all the guns.
…why at that point do you need to use those guns to murder people who are no longer holding murderous control over those common resources?
I refuse to acquiesce to or defend a system of belief that requires people die.
Once you win, you don’t kill or you never had moral authority to employ violence in pursuit of winning in the first place.
While I agree in principle I tend to think there are still unforgivable crimes and irredeemable people out there.
While I agree in principle I tend to think there are still unforgivable crimes and irredeemable people out there.
Then you don’t agree.
I wasn’t aware crime was about forgiveness.
I thought in-so-far as societies implemented systems of justice, their purpose was restitution and rehabilitiation.No one gains anything from a person—irrespective their prior actions—being murdered and we all lose a bit of our soul each time a state execution is allowed to take place.
I really expected better from Vietnam, whose “quarantine at gunpoint” public health policies I heartily endorse.
Alright. I DON’T agree.
Alright. I DON’T agree.
You should; death as a post-hoc punishment is abhorrent and serves no one.
While celebrating a billionaire getting their just desserts is always fun, not really sure that this is a reflection of the decency of the Vietnamese government.
Since there’s no rational hope of addressing the other 3k or so billionaire parasites on Earth without building a really big Titanic wreckage tour sub and making little paths of stock certificates leading to it like reese’s pieces in ET, I’ll take whatever incidental vicarious revenge against humanity’s oppressors I can get.
I mean, celebrate the revenge, for sure. Just don’t mistake it for decency. Vietnam is about as corrupt as India.
We’re no less corrupt in the US, merely more expensive.
Our cheats just hire lobbyists to make their corrupt practices legal, shout out to Citizens United, and/or hire enough lawyers to make the consequences meaningless, like fining a company that makes billions a year thousands for profitable criminal activity.
Our “solution” to corruption is simply to make it legal for the right price. Donald Trump should have lost his empire and gone to jail for his business practices long before he was a game show host, let alone POTUS, but he learned and inherited enough from daddy to understand how to wield American style corruption, and he’s still free.
We’re no less corrupt in the US, merely more expensive.
We’re very corrupt in the US. That’s not the same as being corrupt to the same degree. I… would encourage looking into the relative corruption of countries. We, in the US, are near the bottom of the the list as far as developed countries go (beaten out by only such luminaries as Italy and Greece), but we aren’t even close to as bad as it can get. We’re just more aware of our own corruption than of other countries. I mean, we are Americans. We’re barely aware of the existence of other countries, much less their corruption.
I can’t get behind a government giving the death penalty to anybody for any reason
Since when is it leftist to support the death penalty, let alone take glee in it. This is like the boomer FB shit
This is like the boomer FB shit
Welcome to Lemmy!
I’m against the death penalty in general, but I also acknowledge that in terms of tangible damage to humanity, any billionaire walking the Earth makes any serial killer who has ever walked the Earth seem positively quaint by scale.
I also recognize that we are living under class occupation. The owner class handily won the class war by convincing most of the developed world not to fight it half a century ago.
The peasants don’t have the luxury of taking prisoners. We are the losers of a war, in spite of the fact that many have come to worship their occupying oppressors.
Keeping the most destructive humans locked away and well fed until they die of natural causes is a peacetime luxury for those in charge, and unless you’re holding a reprehensible amount of capital, that isn’t us. You might believe we are in peacetime, but if we refuse to stop them, and it looks that way, they will force our shared, communal habitat to stop us all through their insatiable, sociopathic avarice.
We love to think we’re not, but we’re still subjects wholly dependant on this world, even the owners activily attacking us and it simultaneously.
The peasants don’t have the luxury of taking prisoners.
I mean, why not? POWs have their own self-evident advantages, as we’ve seen taking place in palestine right now. Hostages are a pretty good thing to have if you want to create a long term negotiating strategy with other people.
But also, if you get rid of the billioinaire’s billions, then you get rid of the billionaire. Now you just have a 'naire. Maybe a thousandaire, or something. Like, all the rich people that fled from cuba to florida didn’t really end up doing a whole lot with their lives except being mad and super bitter about the fact that they weren’t able to keep participating in a fascist government that oppressed the people. Most of them were petite bourgeois anyways. It’s the ones that refused to leave that you end up murdering by way of this being the only thing that can force them to leave.
None of that is really similar to this situation at all, even, this is just an independent government killing someone that realistically could have no recourse if they were just completely stripped of their money and sent off to go fuck around in some other country. It’s also, to me, kind of an illustration of the divide that you conceive of prison as a “way to keep the most destructive humans locked away and well fed until they die of natural causes”. There’s, ideally, a greater purpose to prison beyond that. You’re justifying this by conceiving of this as like, a “war”, an extreme war, a life or death war, oooh it’s a war, wartime wartime wartime, but then, the police do the same thing when they justify shooting some guy on the street.
I dunno, this strikes me as a lot of nice sounding guilt-assuaging talk, as good rhetoric, but you haven’t really given me any logical argumentation to chew on here, as to why this would be good or why this had to be done, really.
The French revolution shows that the guilotines don’t necessarily stop when the aristocrats are all dead. I’m not enthusiastic about mob justice
Not a fan of the death penalty
Me neither, but killing some of the capitalist class has always been part of leftist revolutions so I can let this one slide.
I don’t think the state having the power to round people up and kill them, even if I don’t like the people it is being done to. It seems really dangerous.
Me neither. Except in cases where I support it.
Seems like a waste of energy and labor. Put that capitalist pig to work in the community. I read somewhere that the death penalty is just a scare tactic to get her to give up some cash she’s got hidden.
That’s typical communist competitor purges, it has nothing to o with redistribution of wealth.
This is the correct answer. It’s not the kind of revolution people are thinking, like with France.
This is more like Stalin level shit to send a message.
China 🤝 Vietnam
that’s a weird way to spell “enabling them in the first place” 🤔
Criticising other countries for enabling billionaires is something I think only like Cuba can do.
“We” isn’t this the case of other billionaires getting mad at one billionaire?
I don’t think we should have billionaires but celebrating state sponsored murder is fucking gross
But that’s the only murder that’s socially acceptable!
Lol too bad. Eat the rich
Interesting if you read about it, while many were found guilty I think only a woman is being sentences to death while many men are just getting a decade in prison for their involvement in it.
If she was the ringleader, sure… I guess (not that it makes the state’s murdering of folks alright). But odd that she gets death while all the men don’t even get 20 in jail.
I mean, Vietnam is a Socialist Oriented Market Economy.
86% of Vietnamese people own their own homes, 70% are farmers because the government will allocate farm land to anyone who proves they can raise crops.
And remember kids, 73% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Gotta serve those numbers with some sauce
I’m sure all those Vietnamese workers love walking past statues of Ho Chi Minh and liberationist/progressive/commie monuments on their way to work for multi-national companies or when speculating on the Ho Chi Minh stock exchange
It’s just social democracy at this point tbh
Tho don’t get me wrong, this one is not entirely on the CPV (even though the party bureaucracy plays a huge part in this), but simply losing virtually all networks of solidarity to other socialists contries (especially with China being on the capitalist road)Says someone from a high horse in a wealthy neo-colonial Capitalists country that’s allied with various genocidal regimes.
yes that is smth I am also critically aware of and highly condemn, does not mean that I’m blind to revisionism or the fact that a lot of it is caused by said (neo-)colonialism/imperialism
just fyi: your comment kind of has “but you posted that from your iphone”-vibes tbh
What are you saying is a product of revisionism?
Hey, I asked a simple question.
Also how does it get to 12.5 billion before people do something? Had they intervened with something less severe at 1 billion then there would still be 11.5 billion and a life not lost.
This is a communist country and a show trial for someone fell out of favor, not am actual fraud case
Or just those that are not on “the line”? Like Russians falling out of windows. What is the actual truth behind this?
