Nobody should be lectured on propaganda by North American and European social democrats who infest Lemmy and spread propaganda to a much higher degree across most instances and communities.
Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as supporting the alternative. Two things can be wrong at the same time.
To put it in simple terms: Russian Imperial propaganda is bad but American Imperial neoliberal propaganda isn’t any better just because they are at odds.
The whole “stones thrown from glass houses” thing.
As an anti-imperialist, I get that kind of rebuttal A LOT. People cannot stand it when you bring light that all empires of the modern day got to their heights by being the most politically and socially manipulative parasites this world has ever seen.
US, UK, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Russia, China, etc… any and all nations which exert extensive global influence through economic, military, or political power.
Are you just ignorant of how the global north has, for the last centuries, been exploiting the global south? Are you ignorant of neocolonial economic dynamics that Nordic countries exploit to fuel their capitalist social democracy? Are you just ignorant of the fact many African nations still have to pay colonial taxes to France? Just because they stopped officially attributing the label of “empire” to themselves doesn’t mean they stopped being Imperialist nations. They still all heavily benefit from their colonial past, the only thing that changed was the labels and structures to be less direct so they can claim the benefit of the doubt.
US, UK, France, and Spain all currently hold territory they stole from others. They also invented and continue neocolonialism both individually and collectively. I would add the Netherlands to this list of contemporary empires. Portugal still has 2 islands, so they should count as well.
Norway I don’t believe does. Happy to learn more about this if I am wrong though.
I don’t believe Sweden still has an imperial holdings either. Again, happy to learn more.
While the Nordic countries benefit from their relationship to the North Atlantic empire, I am not aware of their direct exploitation of other nations. Again, happy to learn more.
Russia currently has about 20 foreign military bases, so they could be argued to be an empire from some perspectives. I’m open to that. I don’t think it’s at all accurate to say that Russia got those holdings through the same behavior as the above empires.
What do you consider China’s imperial holdings? They have one foreign military base that was created through mutual negotiations with the government of Djibouti. They do not engage in the economic entrapment of neocolonialism. They haven’t dropped a single bomb in over 35 years.
They have a better claim to leftism & socialism than the illiberal leftists & left-wing authoritarians who manifest inherently unequal, oppressive concentrations of authority & political power.
Both in principle & practice, non-authoritarian or liberal leftism beats left-wing authoritarianism.
Left-wing authoritarianism is a bankrupt contradiction lacking legitimate claims to the central tenet of leftism of promoting equality.
Such philosophies & governments don’t serve the people, they serve an exclusive, repressive regime of political party elites.
Not even close: political systems (governance of people & their actions) aren’t economic system (goods & services), and authoritarianism is a political system.
When liberal democratic governments commit human rights abuses, their philosophy at least recognizes them as illegitimate backslides from that philosophy, and on recovery the people may freely try to hold their governments accountable as they freely condemn such injustices.
However, let’s appreciate the hypocrisy of your position.
You’re posting your criticism of capitalism on a online system created in the free world, and you’re benefitting from the freedom to express yourself respected by your government, likely a liberal democracy with some form of mixed economy that includes capitalism.
No government authority is shutting you down.
We couldn’t safely claim the same if you criticized your government’s economic system from a state run by a left-wing authoritarian regime.
Even supposing capitalism is authoritarian in some way, it’s not the government.
Left-wing authoritarianism purports to fight oppression by becoming (causing and perpetuating) oppression.
Left-wing authoritarians replace their economic elites with political elites only unlike before, these elites can now run wild with unrestricted government authority to terrorize the masses: they claim that’s progress.
European Social Democrats spreading propaganda? I’ve seen a lot of europeans talking about how life in central / northern europe differs from what happens in other parts of the world, but i wouldn’t call that propaganda, just sharing experience. And it’s only that you read more of us because the .ml instances and hexbear are the most defederated sites outside of instances with illegal content.
Nobody should be lectured on propaganda by North American and European social democrats who infest Lemmy and spread propaganda to a much higher degree across most instances and communities.
It is clear that russian propaganda is the best propaganda. pats you on the head
Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as supporting the alternative. Two things can be wrong at the same time.
To put it in simple terms: Russian Imperial propaganda is bad but American Imperial neoliberal propaganda isn’t any better just because they are at odds.
The whole “stones thrown from glass houses” thing.
Correct, you understood my point perfectly.
As an anti-imperialist, I get that kind of rebuttal A LOT. People cannot stand it when you bring light that all empires of the modern day got to their heights by being the most politically and socially manipulative parasites this world has ever seen.
Name today’s empires please
US, UK, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Russia, China, etc… any and all nations which exert extensive global influence through economic, military, or political power.
Are you just ignorant of how the global north has, for the last centuries, been exploiting the global south? Are you ignorant of neocolonial economic dynamics that Nordic countries exploit to fuel their capitalist social democracy? Are you just ignorant of the fact many African nations still have to pay colonial taxes to France? Just because they stopped officially attributing the label of “empire” to themselves doesn’t mean they stopped being Imperialist nations. They still all heavily benefit from their colonial past, the only thing that changed was the labels and structures to be less direct so they can claim the benefit of the doubt.
US, UK, France, and Spain all currently hold territory they stole from others. They also invented and continue neocolonialism both individually and collectively. I would add the Netherlands to this list of contemporary empires. Portugal still has 2 islands, so they should count as well.
Norway I don’t believe does. Happy to learn more about this if I am wrong though.
I don’t believe Sweden still has an imperial holdings either. Again, happy to learn more.
While the Nordic countries benefit from their relationship to the North Atlantic empire, I am not aware of their direct exploitation of other nations. Again, happy to learn more.
Russia currently has about 20 foreign military bases, so they could be argued to be an empire from some perspectives. I’m open to that. I don’t think it’s at all accurate to say that Russia got those holdings through the same behavior as the above empires.
What do you consider China’s imperial holdings? They have one foreign military base that was created through mutual negotiations with the government of Djibouti. They do not engage in the economic entrapment of neocolonialism. They haven’t dropped a single bomb in over 35 years.
Tibet
They have a better claim to leftism & socialism than the illiberal leftists & left-wing authoritarians who manifest inherently unequal, oppressive concentrations of authority & political power.
Capitalism! (Which socdems completely support)
That’s a weird spelling for authoritarianism.
Social democrats support mixed economies with social safety nets.
Economic indexes show liberal democracies in Europe, Canada, East Asia, Australia including social democracies beat communist states (North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) in lower economic inequality in terms of wealth & income. North Korea comes close, and that state overspends on military instead of lifting people out of poverty, thus allowing famines & food shortages to stunt growth & shorten life expectances by 12 years compared to their South Korean neighbors.
Both in principle & practice, non-authoritarian or liberal leftism beats left-wing authoritarianism. Left-wing authoritarianism is a bankrupt contradiction lacking legitimate claims to the central tenet of leftism of promoting equality. Such philosophies & governments don’t serve the people, they serve an exclusive, repressive regime of political party elites.
Capitalism is authoritarianism.
Not even close: political systems (governance of people & their actions) aren’t economic system (goods & services), and authoritarianism is a political system.
Not even arguing about capitalism: left-wing authoritarianism is still everything I wrote regardless of capitalism. Those liberal democracies I mentioned still in principle limit authority of governments unlike those regimes whose shitty philosophies lack any such scruples: authoritarian philosophies authorize unlimited government power to repress universal rights & liberties. A non-exhaustive list of authorized abuses: the Soviets had their great purges; the Chinese communist party punishes generals for refusing to mass murder civilians, suppresses discussion of times they’ve sent tanks against civilians, persecutes the Uyghurs & Falun Gong, & represses the freedoms of its LGBT+ population to express themselves & form establishments on- & off-line to meet. These actions aren’t backslides from their philosophy.
When liberal democratic governments commit human rights abuses, their philosophy at least recognizes them as illegitimate backslides from that philosophy, and on recovery the people may freely try to hold their governments accountable as they freely condemn such injustices.
However, let’s appreciate the hypocrisy of your position. You’re posting your criticism of capitalism on a online system created in the free world, and you’re benefitting from the freedom to express yourself respected by your government, likely a liberal democracy with some form of mixed economy that includes capitalism. No government authority is shutting you down. We couldn’t safely claim the same if you criticized your government’s economic system from a state run by a left-wing authoritarian regime.
Even supposing capitalism is authoritarian in some way, it’s not the government. Left-wing authoritarianism purports to fight oppression by becoming (causing and perpetuating) oppression. Left-wing authoritarians replace their economic elites with political elites only unlike before, these elites can now run wild with unrestricted government authority to terrorize the masses: they claim that’s progress.
Economics and politics are inseparable.
The great lie of liberalism is that a population may be free even while deprived.
At best, your argument rests on a shifting of the goalposts to construct a pretend purity.
Found the lib
found the fake leftist: doesn’t care about political inequality or unchecked oppression
Removed by mod
European Social Democrats spreading propaganda? I’ve seen a lot of europeans talking about how life in central / northern europe differs from what happens in other parts of the world, but i wouldn’t call that propaganda, just sharing experience. And it’s only that you read more of us because the .ml instances and hexbear are the most defederated sites outside of instances with illegal content.