it’s just that equality feels like prosecution to those who have traditionally lived charmed lives
I cannot speak for “that country”, assuming you mean the US, as I don’t live there. That said, I think people don’t have actual past lives as a reference. If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
Then there is another issue, which is that in reality there are a lot of factors that determine whether you are born “in third base”. Gender, historically, has been one of them, but it’s far from being a guarantee. However, the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society. These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere.
My leftist interpretation is that some of the egalitarian discourse (feminism, LGBT rights etc.) has been to some extent swallowed by the status quo, and lost a lot of the revolutionary potential it had, becoming more focused on individual perception and rights, rather than on systemic issues that therefore could capture also the dynamics of a white man being also oppressed, even if from a different angle.
In other words, if feminism is purely focused on battles of women as a group of individuals, and not as part of a system that oppresses them within a wider mechanism, then oppressed people that don’t strictly belong to that category have a much harder time to see in women a reflection of their own oppression.
Basically, a realization such as:
We’re all the same to them now, and will all be exploited as such.
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that’s why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies. This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
The problem is that even if your grandfather isn’t around to tell you about it, the evidence of his accomplishments outlive him. You don’t need to embody someone’s personal lives to understand that your grandfather lived an upper middle class working at a factory, and you can barely afford to make rent. That your father married his highschool sweetheart and started a family in his twenties, and you’re thirty and can barely afford groceries for yourself.
the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society.
Right…but can you claim in an academically honest way that a poor white man has historically been offered more opportunities to succeed than a poor black man? That poor white men and poor black men have the same opportunities to lift themselves out of their class structure?
These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere.
Idk, I would say the majority of the United States Congress has been very open to mens rights advocacy. This discourse revolves around people like Tate who have created space specifically for men to air their grievances.
Some say they are driven there because they have no progressive place to go. I just think they don’t want anything to do with progressive spaces, because progressive spaces do not put them on a pedestal. They are included vicariously, the progressive ideology of supporting young people doesn’t preclude young men. It just isn’t solely focused on them.
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that’s why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies.
I agree, but until recently there has always been a social understanding that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. So long as the upper class threw enough scraps down from the table, the pet class would support the hierarchy.
This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
That is my problem with specifically focusing on mens rights, it’s just another division in class solidarity.
You don’t need to embody someone’s personal lives to understand that your grandfather lived an upper middle class working at a factory, and you can barely afford to make rent. That your father married his highschool sweetheart and started a family in his twenties, and you’re thirty and can barely afford groceries for yourself.
Sure, and that’s why I spoke about expectations. But a feeling of being prosecuted requires something else, in my opinion. Everyone in the situation you describe would realize that the problems are common, and not “mine” because male. What I thought you were referring to was the dissonance between expecting a privileged life and having a regular one, such as not being handed over things on a silver platter and having to simply “work” for them.
Right…but can you claim in an academically honest way that a poor white man has historically been offered more opportunities to succeed than a poor black man? That poor white men and poor black men have the same opportunities to lift themselves out of their class structure?
Sure, but that doesn’t help anybody, because we don’t live in statistics and we don’t live historically. If I am a struggling person, telling me that historically the category that I happened to belong to was privileged hence I am privileged feels like adding insult to injury. In fact, the moment arguments such as “sorry, it has been centuries the turn for [CATEGORY] now it’s the turn of [OTHER CATEGORY]” are thrown around is the moment those categories will see themselves as adversaries for vital space, and not on the same side fighting against an oppressor, which is exactly what I think happens in many instances today. And make no mistake, I think this is by no means a coincidence, this is absolutely functional as such struggle is less threatening to who detains power.
Idk, I would say the majority of the United States Congress has been very open to mens rights advocacy. This discourse revolves around people like Tate who have created space specifically for men to air their grievances.
I am talking about mainstream and daily life. And it’s not even about men’s right, it’s about struggle of people independently from the individual social group(s) they belong to, but more focused on class (for example). The “men’s right” movement is a reactionary movement that sees in feminism and other movements a threat, and to some extend, they are a threat. Intersectional feminism is not mainstream, it did not really breach the social norm or discourse. What did breach is the superficial/apolitical version of it that stays on the surface. This is what people see everyday in movies, TV series, on the workplace, on social media etc. This is what I mean by not having representation, not having a voice.
They are included vicariously, the progressive ideology of supporting young people doesn’t preclude young men. It just isn’t solely focused on them.
I can’t talk about what’s going on in US, but what reaches on the other side of the ocean, doesn’t include men at all. In fact, the main cultural result of progressive movements that I can observe from here is “woke”-ism, which I lack a better term to define, which is basically apolitical and fully focused on individual elements within the status quo, but lacks a proper political frame and analysis and therefore is very narrow in scope (women, race and LGBT).
so long as the upper class threw enough scraps down from the table, the pet class would support the hierarchy.
I mean, the biggest political struggles happened almost 50 years ago. I really don’t see what you are referring to, nor I do see right now in any form a coherent political movement who focuses on the class struggle as main objective. Am I missing something, maybe?
That is my problem with specifically focusing on mens rights, it’s just another division in class solidarity.
I addressed this point earlier, but I will repeat it just to elaborate. I don’t care about men’s rights. I care about a class analysis and a political movement that uses it, which is able to channel all the struggles from oppressed people, starting from women and other minorities, without alienating some of them due to irrelevant differences.
This is in essence my problem: the current mainstream “progressive” discourse has been so neutered politically that has become individualist and as such doesn’t capture the whole dynamic of class oppression.
To make a concrete example, in tech the debate about women and other minorities is extremely hot and it’s absolutely common to be the sole focus of diversity initiatives etc. Obviously this is posturing from the companies’ perspective, but even the progressive people often fail to talk about other issues such as ageism (and many other things, ofc), which is an even bigger discriminatory factor in tech. It’s not that one is more important of the other (or viceversa), it’s that they are both results of the same exploitative dynamic and focusing on one of them without capturing the higher level problem becomes neutered and alienates people.
Sure, and that’s why I spoke about expectations. But a feeling of being prosecuted requires something else, in my opinion. Everyone in the situation you describe would realize that the problems are common, and not “mine” because male.
I am not that confident this is true. I don’t expect that level of self awareness in the majority of young people.
because we don’t live in statistics and we don’t live historically. If I am a struggling person, telling me that historically the category that I happened to belong to was privileged hence I am privileged
First I do think we live in statistics, some of us may be unaware of this but it affects nus either way. Secondly, I think the internal contradiction is that a poor white person is likely to believe they should be more privileged based on their race, but are not because of progressive policy. The same way poor people protect the wealthy from taxation.
Finally we are discussing social class, not how individuals react to the idea of social class. I didn’t say all white people were privileged people, I said white people belong to a privileged class. It’s the same as saying San Fransisco is a rich city, instead of saying everyone in San Francisco is rich. If you are not a rich person in San Francisco, and I said the problem is inherent in the wealth of San Francisco, would you take it personally?
am talking about mainstream and daily life. And it’s not even about men’s right, it’s about struggle of people independently from the individual social group(s) they belong to, but more focused on class (for example). The “men’s right” movement is a reactionary movement that sees in feminism and other movements a threat, and to some extend, they are a threat. Intersectional feminism is not mainstream, it did not really breach the social norm or discourse. What did breach is the superficial/apolitical version of it that stays on the surface. This is what people see everyday in movies, TV series, on the workplace, on social media etc. This is what I mean by not having representation, not having a voice.
Right, but who does have that kind of representation or voice if not white men? Even in your example you highlighted how intersectional feminism never got its time in the mainstream.
doesn’t include men at all. In fact, the main cultural result of progressive movements
I mean, I think that’s fairly natural if there really isn’t much room for men to progress in a society. If you’re already at the top, where else is there to make progress other than supporting allies who haven’t made it yet?
First I do think we live in statistics, some of us may be unaware of this but it affects nus either way.
What I mean is that if I am a white unemployed, poor, knowing that 90% of rich people are white and male doesn’t make me any richer or privileged.
a poor white person is likely to believe they should be more privileged based on their race
based on what you think so?
Finally we are discussing social class, not how individuals react to the idea of social class. I didn’t say all white people were privileged people, I said white people belong to a privileged class. It’s the same as saying San Fransisco is a rich city, instead of saying everyone in San Francisco is rich. If you are not a rich person in San Francisco, and I said the problem is inherent in the wealth of San Francisco, would you take it personally?
But this is the problem. Class is not tied with demography in itself, class has to do with relationship to wealth. White people don’t belong to a privileged class, the privileged class is mostly composed by white people. They are not the same thing.
I would take it personally if you defined policy that worked on the assumption that “San Francisco” is rich, if I am one of the thousands of homeless people, indeed.
Right, but who does have that kind of representation or voice if not white men? Even in your example you highlighted how intersectional feminism never got its time in the mainstream.
Women and other minorities today have that representation. Mainstream discourse involves a lot these topics. Unfortunately not intersectional feminism, because that’s way too threatening.
I mean, I think that’s fairly natural if there really isn’t much room for men to progress in a society. If you’re already at the top
That’s the thing, being a man doesn’t make you on top. Thinking this way, with airtight categories is indicative of the kind of idea that as long as “a proportionate amount of women” are going to be “on top” (i.e., in position of power), we are fine. We are not. This always leave a significant amount of people oppressed. That’s why I think feminism should be (and partly is!) a transformative movement, and why I think it’s a problem that it has been swallowed by the status quo. This, to me, is the wrong battle.
If someone told me that since I am man I am “on top”, and therefore I should just be an ally, I would feel alienated, because this fails completely to capture the mechanism of the system that oppresses both me and women.
What I mean is that if I am a white unemployed, poor, knowing that 90% of rich people are white and male doesn’t make me any richer or privileged.
Would that person be claiming that young white men are the most disadvantaged class?
Remember, I didn’t claim that all white people were privileged. Only that if you were to for some reason break class down to race and gender, young white men would not more discriminated against than anyone else.
based on what you think so?
I mean we are talking about people who are claiming that young white males are being ignored or specifically discriminated against. So they’re already drawing conclusions based on race. In America a common trope is to blame minorities for economic disparity. Going back prior to the civil war, where poor white farmers blamed the slaves for ruining the labor market.
Class is not tied with demography in itself, class has to do with relationship to wealth. White people don’t belong to a privileged class, the privileged class is mostly composed by white people. They are not the same thing.
Again, the original context was about a group who already specified their demography. The premise was that young white men were specifically disadvantaged.
My rebuttal was that specifying young white men, instead of just young people was problematic. But if we were to examine this demographic as a class, it would be hard to say they were disadvantaged. I did not define the structure of class in this argument, the person I was originally responding to did.
Women and other minorities today have that representation.
And white men do not?
That’s the thing, being a man doesn’t make you on top. Thinking this way, with airtight categories is indicative of the kind of idea that as long as “a proportionate amount of women” are going to be “on top” (i.e.,
When I said the top, I meant in policy. If we are talking about political equality, there are not a lot of reasons for men to justifiably advance their own rights.
If someone told me that since I am man I am “on top”, and therefore I should just be an ally, I would feel alienated, because this fails completely to capture the mechanism of the system that oppresses both me and women.
And if they told you they were progressive about mens rights?
I cannot speak for “that country”, assuming you mean the US, as I don’t live there. That said, I think people don’t have actual past lives as a reference. If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
Then there is another issue, which is that in reality there are a lot of factors that determine whether you are born “in third base”. Gender, historically, has been one of them, but it’s far from being a guarantee. However, the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society. These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere. My leftist interpretation is that some of the egalitarian discourse (feminism, LGBT rights etc.) has been to some extent swallowed by the status quo, and lost a lot of the revolutionary potential it had, becoming more focused on individual perception and rights, rather than on systemic issues that therefore could capture also the dynamics of a white man being also oppressed, even if from a different angle. In other words, if feminism is purely focused on battles of women as a group of individuals, and not as part of a system that oppresses them within a wider mechanism, then oppressed people that don’t strictly belong to that category have a much harder time to see in women a reflection of their own oppression.
Basically, a realization such as:
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that’s why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies. This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
The problem is that even if your grandfather isn’t around to tell you about it, the evidence of his accomplishments outlive him. You don’t need to embody someone’s personal lives to understand that your grandfather lived an upper middle class working at a factory, and you can barely afford to make rent. That your father married his highschool sweetheart and started a family in his twenties, and you’re thirty and can barely afford groceries for yourself.
Right…but can you claim in an academically honest way that a poor white man has historically been offered more opportunities to succeed than a poor black man? That poor white men and poor black men have the same opportunities to lift themselves out of their class structure?
Idk, I would say the majority of the United States Congress has been very open to mens rights advocacy. This discourse revolves around people like Tate who have created space specifically for men to air their grievances.
Some say they are driven there because they have no progressive place to go. I just think they don’t want anything to do with progressive spaces, because progressive spaces do not put them on a pedestal. They are included vicariously, the progressive ideology of supporting young people doesn’t preclude young men. It just isn’t solely focused on them.
I agree, but until recently there has always been a social understanding that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. So long as the upper class threw enough scraps down from the table, the pet class would support the hierarchy.
That is my problem with specifically focusing on mens rights, it’s just another division in class solidarity.
Sure, and that’s why I spoke about expectations. But a feeling of being prosecuted requires something else, in my opinion. Everyone in the situation you describe would realize that the problems are common, and not “mine” because male. What I thought you were referring to was the dissonance between expecting a privileged life and having a regular one, such as not being handed over things on a silver platter and having to simply “work” for them.
Sure, but that doesn’t help anybody, because we don’t live in statistics and we don’t live historically. If I am a struggling person, telling me that historically the category that I happened to belong to was privileged hence I am privileged feels like adding insult to injury. In fact, the moment arguments such as “sorry, it has been centuries the turn for [CATEGORY] now it’s the turn of [OTHER CATEGORY]” are thrown around is the moment those categories will see themselves as adversaries for vital space, and not on the same side fighting against an oppressor, which is exactly what I think happens in many instances today. And make no mistake, I think this is by no means a coincidence, this is absolutely functional as such struggle is less threatening to who detains power.
I am talking about mainstream and daily life. And it’s not even about men’s right, it’s about struggle of people independently from the individual social group(s) they belong to, but more focused on class (for example). The “men’s right” movement is a reactionary movement that sees in feminism and other movements a threat, and to some extend, they are a threat. Intersectional feminism is not mainstream, it did not really breach the social norm or discourse. What did breach is the superficial/apolitical version of it that stays on the surface. This is what people see everyday in movies, TV series, on the workplace, on social media etc. This is what I mean by not having representation, not having a voice.
I can’t talk about what’s going on in US, but what reaches on the other side of the ocean, doesn’t include men at all. In fact, the main cultural result of progressive movements that I can observe from here is “woke”-ism, which I lack a better term to define, which is basically apolitical and fully focused on individual elements within the status quo, but lacks a proper political frame and analysis and therefore is very narrow in scope (women, race and LGBT).
I mean, the biggest political struggles happened almost 50 years ago. I really don’t see what you are referring to, nor I do see right now in any form a coherent political movement who focuses on the class struggle as main objective. Am I missing something, maybe?
I addressed this point earlier, but I will repeat it just to elaborate. I don’t care about men’s rights. I care about a class analysis and a political movement that uses it, which is able to channel all the struggles from oppressed people, starting from women and other minorities, without alienating some of them due to irrelevant differences. This is in essence my problem: the current mainstream “progressive” discourse has been so neutered politically that has become individualist and as such doesn’t capture the whole dynamic of class oppression. To make a concrete example, in tech the debate about women and other minorities is extremely hot and it’s absolutely common to be the sole focus of diversity initiatives etc. Obviously this is posturing from the companies’ perspective, but even the progressive people often fail to talk about other issues such as ageism (and many other things, ofc), which is an even bigger discriminatory factor in tech. It’s not that one is more important of the other (or viceversa), it’s that they are both results of the same exploitative dynamic and focusing on one of them without capturing the higher level problem becomes neutered and alienates people.
I am not that confident this is true. I don’t expect that level of self awareness in the majority of young people.
First I do think we live in statistics, some of us may be unaware of this but it affects nus either way. Secondly, I think the internal contradiction is that a poor white person is likely to believe they should be more privileged based on their race, but are not because of progressive policy. The same way poor people protect the wealthy from taxation.
Finally we are discussing social class, not how individuals react to the idea of social class. I didn’t say all white people were privileged people, I said white people belong to a privileged class. It’s the same as saying San Fransisco is a rich city, instead of saying everyone in San Francisco is rich. If you are not a rich person in San Francisco, and I said the problem is inherent in the wealth of San Francisco, would you take it personally?
Right, but who does have that kind of representation or voice if not white men? Even in your example you highlighted how intersectional feminism never got its time in the mainstream.
I mean, I think that’s fairly natural if there really isn’t much room for men to progress in a society. If you’re already at the top, where else is there to make progress other than supporting allies who haven’t made it yet?
What I mean is that if I am a white unemployed, poor, knowing that 90% of rich people are white and male doesn’t make me any richer or privileged.
based on what you think so?
But this is the problem. Class is not tied with demography in itself, class has to do with relationship to wealth. White people don’t belong to a privileged class, the privileged class is mostly composed by white people. They are not the same thing. I would take it personally if you defined policy that worked on the assumption that “San Francisco” is rich, if I am one of the thousands of homeless people, indeed.
Women and other minorities today have that representation. Mainstream discourse involves a lot these topics. Unfortunately not intersectional feminism, because that’s way too threatening.
That’s the thing, being a man doesn’t make you on top. Thinking this way, with airtight categories is indicative of the kind of idea that as long as “a proportionate amount of women” are going to be “on top” (i.e., in position of power), we are fine. We are not. This always leave a significant amount of people oppressed. That’s why I think feminism should be (and partly is!) a transformative movement, and why I think it’s a problem that it has been swallowed by the status quo. This, to me, is the wrong battle. If someone told me that since I am man I am “on top”, and therefore I should just be an ally, I would feel alienated, because this fails completely to capture the mechanism of the system that oppresses both me and women.
Would that person be claiming that young white men are the most disadvantaged class?
Remember, I didn’t claim that all white people were privileged. Only that if you were to for some reason break class down to race and gender, young white men would not more discriminated against than anyone else.
I mean we are talking about people who are claiming that young white males are being ignored or specifically discriminated against. So they’re already drawing conclusions based on race. In America a common trope is to blame minorities for economic disparity. Going back prior to the civil war, where poor white farmers blamed the slaves for ruining the labor market.
Again, the original context was about a group who already specified their demography. The premise was that young white men were specifically disadvantaged.
My rebuttal was that specifying young white men, instead of just young people was problematic. But if we were to examine this demographic as a class, it would be hard to say they were disadvantaged. I did not define the structure of class in this argument, the person I was originally responding to did.
And white men do not?
When I said the top, I meant in policy. If we are talking about political equality, there are not a lot of reasons for men to justifiably advance their own rights.
And if they told you they were progressive about mens rights?